Should we invade Zimbabwe?

[Stu Monty]

I think its something to do with the fact that we trusted them twice not to do it and look what happened. Think it also made up part of the armistice.

Anybody know why?

 

Which part? Can't remember much of that. Did Iannucci do that bit?

 

 

Never released on DVD. The tragedy.

[Elmyn Noos]

I think Iraq has proven already that democracy is not always workable. Some countries need ruling with an iron fist, or anarchy ensues. I'm curious as to what the other side of the coin is on this issue. Alright so Mugabe is a bit of a lad, but I do sometimes watch the news reports on this and wonder if we aren't just getting one side of the story here, as Mugabe's people keep asserting. Why, for instance, are so many other nations not taking the view that we are? Mugabe is painted by our media as an evil dictator who should be ousted, and maybe he is, but surely if it was that clear cut, the nations that have so far sat firmly on the fence would have come out with condemnation? It's not like anyone relies on Zimbabwe for oil or other business?

 

African politics clearly not my specialist subject.

[Stu Monty]

I think Iraq has proven already that democracy is not always workable. Some countries need ruling with an iron fist, or anarchy ensues. I'm curious as to what the other side of the coin is on this issue. Alright so Mugabe is a bit of a lad, but I do sometimes watch the news reports on this and wonder if we aren't just getting one side of the story here, as Mugabe's people keep asserting. Why, for instance, are so many other nations not taking the view that we are? Mugabe is painted by our media as an evil dictator who should be ousted, and maybe he is, but surely if it was that clear cut, the nations that have so far sat firmly on the fence would have come out with condemnation? It's not like anyone relies on Zimbabwe for oil or other business?

 

African politics clearly not my specialist subject.

 

I don't think Iraq has proven that at all; no more than the US has.

[Elmyn Noos]

I don't think Iraq has proven that at all; no more than the US has.

 

Fair enough, but I was angling more to get another viewpoint on what is going on in Zimbabwe and why if Mugabe is so clearly the monster we make him out to be, other nation are clearly avoiding condemnation?

[aws]

Why not? It must be their turn.

[Stu Monty]

Fair enough, but I was angling more to get another viewpoint on what is going on in Zimbabwe and why if Mugabe is so clearly the monster we make him out to be, other nation are clearly avoiding condemnation?

 

He throws boss parties. Strippers, beer, cocaine; the lot. There's no way Kofi and his mates are risking not getting an invite to the next one.

[Section_31]

I think its something to do with the fact that we trusted them twice not to do it and look what happened. Think it also made up part of the armistice.

Anybody know why?

 

It's still classed as the 'frontier' against the former Soviet Union.

 

Back during the height of the cold war, the Russians had something called the 3rd Shock Army in East Germany, which was composed almost exclusively of tanks.

 

Standard tactics would have involved that army sweeping through western euruope and the USA having to get reinforcements across the Atlantic in time, defeat on the ground was regarded as inevitable by NATO though, and any such attack would have eventually resulted in a full nuclear exchange.

 

West Germany was used simply as the first line of defence against the Russians, that's the reason the bases are still there - plus they're useful for training purposes too.

[WaltonRed]

No but the CIA or MI5 should organise a little coup against him.

 

South Africa have gone down in my estimations in all this as well.

[Redexile]

I think Iraq has proven already that democracy is not always workable. Some countries need ruling with an iron fist, or anarchy ensues. I'm curious as to what the other side of the coin is on this issue. Alright so Mugabe is a bit of a lad, but I do sometimes watch the news reports on this and wonder if we aren't just getting one side of the story here, as Mugabe's people keep asserting. Why, for instance, are so many other nations not taking the view that we are? Mugabe is painted by our media as an evil dictator who should be ousted, and maybe he is, but surely if it was that clear cut, the nations that have so far sat firmly on the fence would have come out with condemnation? It's not like anyone relies on Zimbabwe for oil or other business?

 

African politics clearly not my specialist subject.

 

I think Mugabe's a lot more than a bit of a lad Noos. The fact is that he is murdering and beating his people into submission.Try reading a book by Peter Godwin, " When a Crocodile Eats the Sun", for a further insite.

Unfortunately there is an African version of the PC brigade which kinda stops African countries from criticising other African countries as it is seen as pandering to former western colonial powers. BTW do you think for one moment African leaders did not know what was happening in Rwanda???

[Rashid]

Why didn't they blow him up im Egypt? It must have been easy!

[Section_31]

I think Mugabe's a lot more than a bit of a lad Noos. The fact is that he is murdering and beating his people into submission.Try reading a book by Peter Godwin, " When a Crocodile Eats the Sun", for a further insite.

Unfortunately there is an African version of the PC brigade which kinda stops African countries from criticising other African countries as it is seen as pandering to former western colonial powers. BTW do you think for one moment African leaders did not know what was happening in Rwanda???

 

Was thinking that the other day, is part of the problem not that most of their own regime's are precarious and removing one African leader might give people ideas? Just wondering, like Noos I don't know much about Afircan politics to be fair.

[kelster]

Fuck em. Fuck em up their fuckin asses. We shouldn't even think about ever invading/help out another country again. Soldier should be for national defense, not sorting out the problems of foreign pansies who have't the balls to remove their dictators.

[RoboRiise]

No but the CIA or MI5 should organise a little coup against him.

 

South Africa have gone down in my estimations in all this as well.

 

I don't know about South Africa itself but Mbeki certainly has. Considering his HIV denial activities, that takes some doing.

[RedKnight]

We should get our Empire back. We knew how to rule shit.

[DooooodekNo5]

In the name of Democracy and Human Rights?

 

Be interesting to hear everyone's views.

 

EDIT: Please can a MOD move this to the GF!

 

sas in. mugabe dead. sas out. job done. :thumbup:

[Redexile]

Was thinking that the other day, is part of the problem not that most of their own regime's are precarious and removing one African leader might give people ideas? Just wondering, like Noos I don't know much about Afircan politics to be fair.

 

I think it's more than that TBH. In many cases business and politics in Africa are connected to tribal loyalties if you then add into that mix the mess that was made by former colonial powers you get this powder keg atmosphere in many countries.

Now if you factor into the above millions of weapons scattered about the continent and the influence of the Chinese in the region the result can only be confusion.

Personally I believe that if the west is serious about sorting out Zimbabwe they should look at trade embargoes on the whole of Africa. That might sound radical but perhaps it might be the only way to get the message across. Of course that will never happen.

[Elmyn Noos]

I think Mugabe's a lot more than a bit of a lad Noos. The fact is that he is murdering and beating his people into submission.Try reading a book by Peter Godwin, " When a Crocodile Eats the Sun", for a further insite.

Unfortunately there is an African version of the PC brigade which kinda stops African countries from criticising other African countries as it is seen as pandering to former western colonial powers. BTW do you think for one moment African leaders did not know what was happening in Rwanda???

 

Yeah the "bit of a lad" remark was a little tongue in cheek, but I suppose in comparison to plenty of other regimes we did nothing about, his crimes are quite small fry.

 

I will look into this, as I am very curious about it and like I say my knowledge on the politics of Africa is sparse at best.

 

My cynicsm is more borne of a mistrust of the british media. Whenever they get a cause celebre to get their teeth stuck into, I always get the feeling that we only get the side of the story that makes emotive newscasting. Mugabe is nothing if not willing to give them something to fuel their mock outrage. He is clearly not a good man, but it seems strange that an old boys network of african leaders with some common anti-colonial theme would watch as fellow africans are beaten and murdered just because they didn't want to appear non-pc.

 

Or maybe that is just the case, and I am being niave. I did wonder/hope there'd be more to it than that.

[Redexile]

Yeah the "bit of a lad" remark was a little tongue in cheek, but I suppose in comparison to plenty of other regimes we did nothing about, his crimes are quite small fry.

 

I will look into this, as I am very curious about it and like I say my knowledge on the politics of Africa is sparse at best.

 

My cynicsm is more borne of a mistrust of the british media. Whenever they get a cause celebre to get their teeth stuck into, I always get the feeling that we only get the side of the story that makes emotive newscasting. Mugabe is nothing if not willing to give them something to fuel their mock outrage. He is clearly not a good man, but it seems strange that an old boys network of african leaders with some common anti-colonial theme would watch as fellow africans are beaten and murdered just because they didn't want to appear non-pc.

 

Or maybe that is just the case, and I am being niave. I did wonder/hope there'd be more to it than that.

 

I was always wondering why it took the British media so long to shine the spotlight on Mugabe!! I guess Iraq and Afghanistan offered them the "meatier " opportunities.

I thinks it is difficult to understand Africa from this side of the world but I've always thought ( based on my experiences) that life is sometimes considered very cheap there. So what's the killing of a few thousand Zimbabweans if it doesn't affect me? Many people in SA cannot understand Thabo Mbeki's stance on the whole issue. There is very high unemployment amongst the unskilled sector which is exacerbated by refugees from Sudan, Ethiopa and huge numbers from Zimbabwe which led to the recent outbreaks of violence. You would think that he would want to sort out Zim so he could repatriate the refugees and help ease the problems in SA. He really has lost a lot of credibility in S.A.

!

[Elmyn Noos]

I was always wondering why it took the British media so long to shine the spotlight on Mugabe!! I guess Iraq and Afghanistan offered them the "meatier " opportunities.

I thinks it is difficult to understand Africa from this side of the world but I've always thought ( based on my experiences) that life is sometimes considered very cheap there. So what's the killing of a few thousand Zimbabweans if it doesn't affect me? Many people in SA cannot understand Thabo Mbeki's stance on the whole issue. There is very high unemployment amongst the unskilled sector which is exacerbated by refugees from Sudan, Ethiopa and huge numbers from Zimbabwe which led to the recent outbreaks of violence. You would think that he would want to sort out Zim so he could repatriate the refugees and help ease the problems in SA. He really has lost a lot of credibility in S.A.

!

 

That's what I was thinking. With the relative ease, it would seem, of migration between countries across the continent, you would think it would be in everyone's best interest to maximise stability. This is why I was wondering if there was more to this than were getting on our news reports.

[Red Mist]

"We" only invade oil rich countries. Piss-poor African countries are not worth our soldiers losing their live over.

[Redexile]

That's what I was thinking. With the relative ease, it would seem, of migration between countries across the continent, you would think it would be in everyone's best interest to maximise stability. This is why I was wondering if there was more to this than were getting on our news reports.

Nope he's just an evil bastard and the rest of Africa's leaders ( with a couple of exceptions) don't really give a fuck.

[Elmyn Noos]

"We" only invade oil rich countries. Piss-poor African countries are not worth our soldiers losing their live over.

 

Ohhh I see, it's that simple. Thanks for that RM.

[Redexile]

The Times - Mbeki must make a stand against Zim election sham

[Section_31]

Good stuff from Noos and Redexile

[Neil G]

Fuck em. Fuck em up their fuckin asses. We shouldn't even think about ever invading/help out another country again. Soldier should be for national defense, not sorting out the problems of foreign pansies who have't the balls to remove their dictators.

 

Rich, what do you think the opposition in Zimbabwe are trying to do? They haven't got the strength to mount an armed uprising, they'd be wiped out. Not all populations of dictatorships have it in their ability to get rid of their governments by themselves. I'm not advocating sending in troops to get rid of Mugabe by the way, as there are still other avenues that haven't been exhausted.

 

The idea that if we or any other country send troops in to stop massacres we'll inevitably suffer losses is a myth, as I've posted before. Send in a big enough force and make your determination absolutely clear, and most tin-pot regimes will fold with minimal resistance. Their armies and death squads feel very big and brave when they're butchering women and children, but when confronted with a superior Western force authorised to use all means necessary to stop them, they'll shit their pants and run away very quickly.

 

I assume your view on this is influenced by British military casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. Regardless of the merits of sending troops into those countries, there was no need for so many of them to die - with more commitment and better planning from the Americans, and with better equipment, their job would have been much easier and their losses far less serious in both countries. Neither of those wars were about protecting civilians though, so they probably cloud the issue a bit here.