Quality Players

[Section_31]

I realise emotions are raw here but this is something I'm genuinely baffled about. If people don't want to discuss it feel free to exit the thread as is your right under the first amendment and GDPR regulations.

 

I think season upon season of shite signings by successive managers have lowered our standards with regards to what we expect from our footballers. People saying "I wish we could bring Origi on at least he has pace" in a European cup final against Real Madrid shows you how far standards and expectations have fallen.

 

The defence of Karius earlier in the season as "he's not as bad as Mig".

 

Also, judging players like Lovren or Henderson based on one or two showings in a match rather than over season(s) baffles me. One minute they're a villain because they spoon a clearance, next game they make a critical interception and all is forgiven.

 

I don't think players should be viewed like that. A lack of ability is a lack of ability and it can't be coached, taught or cajoled, it simply isn't there.

 

We learned this the hard way in the 90s where the situation was remarkably similar to what it is now. We had a handful of decent players who we'd pin all our hopes on, and if they were off form or injured we were absolutely fucked.

 

Beneath them were a squad of 'okay' players who could 'do a job'. You'd see someone like Steve Harkness getting tried out as a defensive mid and he'd have a good game, people would declare him a revelation and a possible solution to a weak area, next game he'd be anonymous and we'd all be crying the blues for a new defensive midfielder. You can't ask a limited player to be more than he is, it isn't fair and it doesn't work.

 

Things only started to change when Houllier and Rafa bought quality. Hyppia didn't need to be at the 'top of his game' because he was boss. Hamann didn't need to be tried in several different positions because he was boss. There were never debates to be had. Their quality was unquestionable and it showed on the big stage.

 

Players like Leillana, Henderson, Milner etc seem to engender loyalty from the fans but they are not good enough, only for squad roles at the very best. It's telling that in previous matches most of our best attacks have gone through our fullbacks (who DO look top class)

 

Lovren and Karius are blatant Achilles heels.

 

We're stronger than the start of the reason because of the emergence of Trent, Robertson, big Virg and we've got an incredible front three.

 

But the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. As can all our subs.

 

We have to not be satisfied with average players any more if things are going to change and we're going to start winning things.

[aRdja]

I realise emotions are raw here but this is something I'm genuinely baffled about. If people don't want to discuss it feel free to exit the thread as is your right under the first amendment and GDPR regulations.

 

I think season upon season of shite signings by successive managers have lowered our standards with regards to what we expect from our footballers. People saying "I wish we could bring Origi on at least he has pace" in a European cup final against Real Madrid shows you how far standards and expectations have fallen.

 

The defence of Karius earlier in the season as "he's not as bad as Mig".

 

Also, judging players like Lovren or Henderson based on one or two showings in a match rather than over season(s) baffles me. One minute they're a villain because they spoon a clearance, next game they make a critical interception and all is forgiven.

 

I don't think players should be viewed like that. A lack of ability is a lack of ability and it can't be coached, taught or cajoled, it simply isn't there.

 

We learned this the hard way in the 90s where the situation was remarkably similar to what it is now. We had a handful of decent players who we'd pin all our hopes on, and if they were off form or injured we were absolutely fucked.

 

Beneath them were a squad of 'okay' players who could 'do a job'. You'd see someone like Steve Harkness getting tried out as a defensive mid and he'd have a good game, people would declare him a revelation and a possible solution to a weak area, next game he'd be anonymous and we'd all be crying the blues for a new defensive midfielder. You can't ask a limited player to be more than he is, it isn't fair and it doesn't work.

 

Things only started to change when Houllier and Rafa bought quality. Hyppia didn't need to be at the 'top of his game' because he was boss. Hamann didn't need to be tried in several different positions because he was boss. There were never debates to be had. Their quality was unquestionable and it showed on the big stage.

 

Players like Leillana, Henderson, Milner etc seem to engender loyalty from the fans but they are not good enough, only for squad roles at the very best. It's telling that in previous matches most of our best attacks have gone through our fullbacks (who DO look top class)

 

Lovren and Karius are blatant Achilles heels.

 

We're stronger than the start of the reason because of the emergence of Trent, Robertson, big Virg and we've got an incredible front three.

 

But the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. As can all our subs.

 

We have to not be satisfied with average players any more if things are going to change and we're going to start winning things.

I agree with Lovren. People often judge him based on one or two errors, where in actual fact he’s a good defender who’s just had a very good season.

[Section_31]

I agree with Lovren. People often judge him based on one or two errors, where in actual fact he’s actually a good defender who’s just had a very good season.

See I've absolutely no issue with you thinking he's boss at all. It's all opinions. I'd just like to set the tone for this thread right now.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Re-read what I said about Origi. I said we need better, but we need striker options for next season.

 

He's far better than Ings, Solanke and Sturridge put together as he offers pace and power.

 

Him on the bench last night could have made a difference coming on for Mo.

[Jennings]

Re-read what I said about Origi. I said we need better, but we need striker options for next season.

 

He's far better than Ings, Solanke and Sturridge put together as he offers pace and power.

 

Him on the bench last night could have made a difference coming on for Mo.

 

[Jennings]

I think that Klopp is solving the problem you are talking about. I think he has changed the policy to buy fewer players; but players of top quality. He won't get right every time. It will take time too, but I feel it is a good approach.

[Trumo]

The club needs to make a serious go of addressing the squad's weakest areas. We aren't actually all that short on numbers, it's just that the drop-off between the first-choice starting XI and the bench is quite significant. We are too reliant on the first XI getting the job done, and when they don't, those coming off the bench aren't able to change things.

 

The way to address it is to add proven quality to the spine of the team if any of those areas are currently deficient, so a few of the current starters in those positions become squad options rather than starters. Then you let some of the current squad options go. In theory, you reduce the drop-off between your starters and your bench.

[Moo]

I realise emotions are raw here but this is something I'm genuinely baffled about. If people don't want to discuss it feel free to exit the thread as is your right under the first amendment and GDPR regulations.

 

I think season upon season of shite signings by successive managers have lowered our standards with regards to what we expect from our footballers. People saying "I wish we could bring Origi on at least he has pace" in a European cup final against Real Madrid shows you how far standards and expectations have fallen.

 

The defence of Karius earlier in the season as "he's not as bad as Mig".

 

Also, judging players like Lovren or Henderson based on one or two showings in a match rather than over season(s) baffles me. One minute they're a villain because they spoon a clearance, next game they make a critical interception and all is forgiven.

 

I don't think players should be viewed like that. A lack of ability is a lack of ability and it can't be coached, taught or cajoled, it simply isn't there.

 

We learned this the hard way in the 90s where the situation was remarkably similar to what it is now. We had a handful of decent players who we'd pin all our hopes on, and if they were off form or injured we were absolutely fucked.

 

Beneath them were a squad of 'okay' players who could 'do a job'. You'd see someone like Steve Harkness getting tried out as a defensive mid and he'd have a good game, people would declare him a revelation and a possible solution to a weak area, next game he'd be anonymous and we'd all be crying the blues for a new defensive midfielder. You can't ask a limited player to be more than he is, it isn't fair and it doesn't work.

 

Things only started to change when Houllier and Rafa bought quality. Hyppia didn't need to be at the 'top of his game' because he was boss. Hamann didn't need to be tried in several different positions because he was boss. There were never debates to be had. Their quality was unquestionable and it showed on the big stage.

 

Players like Leillana, Henderson, Milner etc seem to engender loyalty from the fans but they are not good enough, only for squad roles at the very best. It's telling that in previous matches most of our best attacks have gone through our fullbacks (who DO look top class)

 

Lovren and Karius are blatant Achilles heels.

 

We're stronger than the start of the reason because of the emergence of Trent, Robertson, big Virg and we've got an incredible front three.

 

But the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. As can all our subs.

 

We have to not be satisfied with average players any more if things are going to change and we're going to start winning things.

You're right, a number of our players simply aren't good enough.

But are people just being pragmatic rather than blindly loyal? Don't get me wrong, I know there's examples of inexplicable blind loyalty (stringvest with Lallana being the standout example), but is that the case generally?

I think it's okay for people to look at the squad we had two years ago, compared to the squad we have now, consider the financial restrictions placed on the manager and make reasonable comments on where we are. Not everyone wants to slag players off constantly and if they don't want to do that what's the alternative? Say nothing?

[jamespp]

how much better than Origi are going to come and be backup though? even Origi doesn’t want to

[Biscao]

I think the progress both on and off the pitch since Klopp arrived has been remarkable. We're actually buying good players these days and Klopp seems to make them click with the rest of the team. Considering our efforts in the market since, well, 1990 (with great exceptions), that is remarkable.

 

I expect us to buy a new goalkeeper this summer. Fair play to Karius for apologizing to the supporters after the match, but he's simply not good enough and what he did in the final is just not excusable. I would be very disappointed if we didn't add at least one top class forward to our current squad, while I think our midfield is fine with the addition of Keita.

 

I can't help but feel like this final came one or two years too early for us. 

[liverpoolsno9]

Re-read what I said about Origi. I said we need better, but we need striker options for next season.

 

He's far better than Ings, Solanke and Sturridge put together as he offers pace and power.

 

Him on the bench last night could have made a difference coming on for Mo.

Can’t be arsed reading what you said about Origi as you talk total shit. But would you like to re-read what you said about Klopp in October? Here it is

 

 

1892-LFCWasBorn, on 02 Oct 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'll be brutally honest, I want Klopp gone. It's not going to get any better under him.

 

Are we supposed to be interested in what you say about Origi when you come out with shit like that?

[RobbieOR]

I think Henderson is good enough. Lovren too. They've proven it. Our problem is the squad. 

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Can’t be arsed reading what you said about Origi as you talk total shit. But would you like to re-read what you said about Klopp in October? Here it is

 

 

1892-LFCWasBorn, on 02 Oct 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'll be brutally honest, I want Klopp gone. It's not going to get any better under him.

 

Are we supposed to be interested in what you say about Origi when you come out with shit like that?

 

Fuck off you stalker creep.

[Jennings]

This is funny because I always get you two mixed up. It's like you're arguing with yourself.

[Jennings]

One of you needs to get an avatar and pay for membership.

[J-V]

how much better than Origi are going to come and be backup though? even Origi doesn’t want to

 

We have enough games to rotate players in and out.  Our issue is rotating average players like Lallana, Ings, Wijnaldum et al is not an option because well they're average as fuck.

[Moo]

We have enough games to rotate players in and out. Our issue is rotating average players like Lallana, Ings, Wijnaldum et al is not an option because well they're average as fuck.

Exactly. Origi would only be back up because he's not good enough to be anything more at LFC. If we brought a quality 4th forward in we'd find a way to ensure they all got enough games, either through rotation or through different formations.

[liverpoolsno9]

Fuck off you stalker creep.

Ha ha. Stalker? Nice comeback. That post shone like a beacon amongst all the shit that was getting posted back then from you and Funnneee. Hardly stalking when you come out with pearlers like that. Just a good memory. You still want him gone? You bad melt.

[Saintslfc13]

We can improve on Karius but if we didn't buy a new keeper I'd be okay with it as well. He made some important saves but he had two howlers, one of which I think should've been disallowed but it was a mistake all the same. If Klopp keeps the faith in him then I'll trust that. Regardless of whether we get a new Keeper or not I think Achterberg needs to be improved upon. Our keepers being shit seems to have coincided with him being their coach, Reina might have become disillusioned and stopped caring towards the end of his time here but we've gotten two keepers in that looked good elsewhere since then and neither one has convinced under his tutelage.

 

Lovren I think has the ability but his confidence goes at times, he's another one that for me could go either way. It's obvious that he can be improved upon but if the manager thinks he'll finally become consistent then I'm cool with it. Especially if he thinks Gomez will eventually come good as a CB.

I think Milner is a good player, he's just getting older and therefore we need another player there, whether it's someone with potential to be coached up (maybe that's Grujic?) or someone that immediately takes his place in the side. Henderson isn't a bad player either but I don't think he's captain material and I never have. At the end of the day it's just an armband but ideally you'd want the man with the armband to have more influence on a game than he does and be more commanding about the pitch. Gerrard was not usually the most vocal leader but his ability was obvious and his passion for the club would shine through. Henderson isn't on that level as a footballer and that's fair enough as not many are but to also not be able to rally the troops so to speak is a problem. We'd be a much better side if Henderson was a squad player rather than one of the first names on the team sheet. As far as the captaincy goes, out of the current squad Van Dijk seems the logical choice for me, one could make an argument for Bobby as well but general opinion is that forwards don't make great captains except for a few obvious exceptions.

What we lacked most today, and have since Gerrard left, is a player that when things go wrong says "fuck it we can still do this". Van Dijk seems to have that attitude, you can argue the front 3 do as well, but the rest of the side not so much.

[aRdja]

This is funny because I always get you two mixed up. It's like you're arguing with yourself.

Lol. I have to admit, that I’m guilty of this too.

[aRdja]

What we lacked most today, and have since Gerrard left, is a player that when things go wrong says "fuck it we can still do this". Van Dijk seems to have that attitude, you can argue the front 3 do as well, but the rest of the side not so much.

I think Gerrard had that attitude precisely because he was an amazing footballer. Van Dijk seems to carry that attitude now because he knows that he’s faster and stronger than most of the players he’s up against. One gripe I have with Lovren is sometimes he overestimates his own ability, especially against the grocks.. goes for every single challenge, thinking he’ll win them all.

[Clem H Fandango]

Just a thought. Should we do business with Madrid in the future?

[KopOut]

I realise emotions are raw here but this is something I'm genuinely baffled about. If people don't want to discuss it feel free to exit the thread as is your right under the first amendment and GDPR regulations.

 

I think season upon season of shite signings by successive managers have lowered our standards with regards to what we expect from our footballers. People saying "I wish we could bring Origi on at least he has pace" in a European cup final against Real Madrid shows you how far standards and expectations have fallen.

 

The defence of Karius earlier in the season as "he's not as bad as Mig".

 

Also, judging players like Lovren or Henderson based on one or two showings in a match rather than over season(s) baffles me. One minute they're a villain because they spoon a clearance, next game they make a critical interception and all is forgiven.

 

I don't think players should be viewed like that. A lack of ability is a lack of ability and it can't be coached, taught or cajoled, it simply isn't there.

 

We learned this the hard way in the 90s where the situation was remarkably similar to what it is now. We had a handful of decent players who we'd pin all our hopes on, and if they were off form or injured we were absolutely fucked.

 

Beneath them were a squad of 'okay' players who could 'do a job'. You'd see someone like Steve Harkness getting tried out as a defensive mid and he'd have a good game, people would declare him a revelation and a possible solution to a weak area, next game he'd be anonymous and we'd all be crying the blues for a new defensive midfielder. You can't ask a limited player to be more than he is, it isn't fair and it doesn't work.

 

Things only started to change when Houllier and Rafa bought quality. Hyppia didn't need to be at the 'top of his game' because he was boss. Hamann didn't need to be tried in several different positions because he was boss. There were never debates to be had. Their quality was unquestionable and it showed on the big stage.

 

Players like Leillana, Henderson, Milner etc seem to engender loyalty from the fans but they are not good enough, only for squad roles at the very best. It's telling that in previous matches most of our best attacks have gone through our fullbacks (who DO look top class)

 

Lovren and Karius are blatant Achilles heels.

 

We're stronger than the start of the reason because of the emergence of Trent, Robertson, big Virg and we've got an incredible front three.

 

But the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. As can all our subs.

 

We have to not be satisfied with average players any more if things are going to change and we're going to start winning things.

One of three things is happening, but we’ll never get to the truth.

 

Either Klopp is being outwardly well mannered while secretly ruthlessly replacing every player in the squad from day one of his arrival, or, he and his staff genuinely believe the squad has quality, or, Klopp and his immediate assistants have absolutely no say in the signings and sackings, and just get pushed around.

 

Why on the one hand can we say we trust in Klopp, but on the other, reject his assertion that his boys are all worthy, and they bring something to the party?

 

Is it possible that Klopp is making a shit load of poor assessments of players abilities? Is that what you’re posting? Is Klopp dropping his expectations of the squad and therefore the club?

[BigMike]

I always remember Arsenal getting rid of Lukic for £1m and buying Seamen for £1.3m and I didn't get it at the time thinking 'why? Lukic is good enough'. But the rest is history, if a position can be improved, even by a bit then it should be done.

 

Replace first team with players who can improve us and put the old first team on the bench and get rid of the bench warmers.  The problem in this day and age is getting rid of the ones who can't make a difference when they are needed to.

 

The trick is clearly not buying them in the first place.

 

This summer is going to be difficult and we need to buy to improve what we have and replace others;Can (off), the Ox (depending on injury), Milner (age) etc. Not going to be easy.

[House of Dirk]

Origi has tailed off spectacularly since that bitter cunt put his foot through him a couple of years back. That said he is a better option than sturridge, solanke or ings.