The Atomic bombing of Nagasaki

[M_B]

But the fact is that the Japanese War Cabinet met in the wake of the Soviet entry into the war to discuss the terms of surrender which had been proclaimed at Potsdam.  Nagasaki was bombed while that meeting was in session.  There's no reason to assume that the bombing of Nagasaki did anything to hasten the end of the war.

 

 

The bombs absolutely hastened the end of the war because without them the Emperor would not have overruled his generals. The Generals agreed not to surrender after the two atomic bombs, but the Emperor veto'd them. Some of those same Generals then attempted a coup.

 

The Japanese plan was to force the allies to a conditional Japanese surrender. They didn't want to give up control of the home islands, have their government and economy interferred with, to admit guilt etc. There is substantial evidence that this was their aim and they were actively preparing for it.

 

So yes, they knew the war was over, but they also knew they could make the Allies think twice about unconditional surrender and they had a point. European nations, especially the UK were losing interest in the war now that Germany had surrendered and the American appetite for war was also diminishing not only in terms of sacrificing its men, but also it's money. The US was running out of cash and the Russians were preparing to invade Manchuria. The Japanese were happy to give up Manchuria if it meant that it would hasten the Allies decision towards a conditional surrender.

 

Strategically it was the correct decision unless you believe that the allies should have accepted a conditional surrender or you believe invading the home islands would have cost fewer lives.

[Anny Road]

It was the only two places the yanks could spell. Except Tokyo but Truemans wife fancied going there on holiday next year.

[dennis tooth]

A spot of genocide.

 

Usa got the north american indians the niggers the gooks the japs the arabs mounted on their walls all eyes on the chinks and ruskies and maybe some eskimos after that.

[Alan Sex]

[Alan Sex]

And the plane very few know the name of...

 

[Nunavut Patrick]

A spot of genocide.

 

Usa got the north american indians the niggers the gooks the japs the arabs mounted on their walls all eyes on the chinks and ruskies and maybe some eskimos after that.

 

eskimos are alright, too cold and not enough of them and Alaska for the most part is reverred as the last unspoiled frontier for your average yank.

 

I mean they still try and ram pipelines through it and all. 

 

Eskimo is okay in US, but in Canada the correct term is Inuit.

 

We also call our blacks black. Those from sub-Asia, ie- India are called Indians. The Columbus ones are First Nation peoples or aboroginals, not like the Australian aborigines, but aboriginals.

 

We have very Japs, we interned them during the war.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Another song about the Enola Gay

 

 

(Utah Philips was a proper old-fashioned rambler - he doesn't start singing until about 3 minutes into this clip.)

[Bjornebye]

Yes, and yes again.Let's turn the tables: Had Japan the means to nuke L.A., do you think for a second they'd moralise and ponder the consequences? Exactly, they'd have flattened it in an instant and crushed it's remains under their jackboots as they pillaged the US from west to East.

 

That is war. and there is no way in my mind that anyone can fake moralise the outcome in victory with 'what-ifs'. The allies were thrust into a conflict they did not invite, and prevailed through massive sacrifice and endeavour. Why some people feel the need to pick away at he very actions that facilitated their freedom to ask those questions is beyond me.  

 

 

tit. 

[Bjornebye]

You're out of order there Neko.

 

I'm not even arguing that it was the wrong thing to do or that I wouldn't do it (I probably would). I'm arguing that it's perfectly reasonable to make moral judgements when removed from the events and that the ethics of the thing can quite easily be discussed without having to have been on the end of nasty treatment or threat from the people you are nuking. In fact it allows you a better, more level headed view of events. I'm also not ignoring context either. 

 

The fact that we would have cheered something doesn't add any moral value to it. Plenty of people would cheer the leveling of the middle-east tomorrow, it doesn't add any moral value to it being done.

 

You are so far removed from humanity it is actually pissing me off. Your high horse is made of dust. 

[dennis tooth]

Usa didnt need to invade its a myth the japs had no fuel and could have been easily contained and put under seige 2. What were they gonna do bust out with nukes made from toilet roll holders like the a team? The man who took the decision to drop them admitted himself it wasnt a choice about the the usa had a million reasons to use the weapon and it was mainly to put russia in its place as well as experimenting on the effects on a live population no one back home had any sympathy for, most other accounts are just propaganda to explain away our stained hands.

[M_B]

Usa didnt need to invade its a myth the japs had no fuel and could have been easily contained and put under seige 2. What were they gonna do bust out with nukes made from toilet roll holders like the a team? The man who took the decision to drop them admitted himself it wasnt a choice about the the usa had a million reasons to use the weapon and it was mainly to put russia in its place as well as experimenting on the effects on a live population no one back home had any sympathy for, most other accounts are just propaganda to explain away our stained hands.

 

Sorry but that is rubbish (if serious - I suspect it isn't).

 

If the Allies had wanted an unconditional surrender they would have needed to invade. There isn't a single, respected historian (Japanese included) who thinks otherwise. The Japanese had been given ample opportunity to surrender before the atomic bombs, but they had refused.

 

What do you think Okinawa was about? The Japanese knew they had lost the war in the Pacific by then, yet they still continued the war. They even sent their largest battleship with a one way ticket allocation of fuel. For the Japanese, Okinawa wasn't about defending the island to win the battle because they knew they couldn't - it was about teaching the Allies that any invasion of Japanese soil would be costly. With what aim? To push them towards a conditional surrender.

 

And the Russians were well aware of the US nuclear program. The President himself told Stalin at Potsdam the US possessed the bombs - the President was taken aback that Stalin was not surprised, but he didn't know that the Russian secret service had a spy on the program. So they didn't need to use the bombs to send them a message. (If you are interested, this was one of the major reasons why the Russians pushed for Berlin - they wanted to capture the Nazi technology and records in order to help to develop their own program).

 

 

 

 

The only decent argument out there that I have ever seen is that the Japanese could have been forced to surrender through an extensive air campaign and yeah that's maybe true. That was the whole point of the allies invading Okinawa. But even so, why waste money and lives with fleets of bombers and bombs when you can achieve the same effect with a single plane and bomb?

[Stu Monty]

You are so far removed from humanity it is actually pissing me off. Your high horse is made of dust. 

 

What the fuck are you going on about high horses for again, you floppy penis?

 

Loads of people would press the fucking button to nuke the middle-east - start with big fans of Fox news and then work your way out from there.

 

You surely aren't the man to start claiming that the human race is full of cunts? I thought you had a fucking tattoo that says that?

[Bjornebye]

Not my fault you have no respect for human life. Fucking hell monty

[Alan Sex]

[Alan Sex]

[Stu Monty]

Not my fault you have no respect for human life. Fucking hell monty

 

What are you talking about you mentalist?

[Lee909]

WW2 was started with this kind of thing.

 

Stig got the Navy sailing into range of Stu's house as we stand.

 

Stu fucked up,needed a Pearl Harbour type attack on Stigs boys before starting hostilities.

[Bjornebye]

What are you talking about you mentalist?

You and your lets nuke the fucking world attitude.

[Stu Monty]

You and your lets nuke the fucking world attitude.

 

What?  You're fucking tapped Stig.

 

I'm the one saying that nuking the world isn't a great thing here! I was saying that just because loads of people might think nuking shit is the right thing to do DOESN'T make it any more right.

[Section_31]

Stig's gone full Peter Barlow.

[Rico1304]

I find it strange how you can say it's ok to shot people, burn people, blow them the fuck up... But not nuke them - which is a mix of the last two.

[Lee909]

You have a point but the use of nuclear weapons destroys future lives too. The fallout causes defects for years.

[General Dryness]

Won't somebody think of the children?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Won't somebody think of the two-headed children?

.

[General Dryness]

Whats the Isle of Man got to do with this?