The twats that are Nick Griffin and the BNP.

[dennis tooth]

The tories certainly think the rich are superior.

[Section_31]

You're absolutely right Stu, divide and conquer is the focus of their propaganda machinery, not to mention the fundamental ethos of the whole party. The crack into which the wedge can be inserted has been widening for years. Apathy would be a dangerous approach.

 

Most of the people I've met who said they'd condsider voting for them are ill-informed about politics in general and have no alternative sources with which to challenge the BNP's skewed publicity material - many of those who receive BNP leaflets through their door simply have no other information to contrast that rubbish with, just the jingoistic and xenophobic nonsense spouted by some of the tabloid press and the views of their equally ill-informed brethren down the social club.

 

There's also a decent proportion that simply don't care; the BNP present an image of an immigration-free Britain with the last two or three generations of immigrant families shipped off to some non-existant homeland as a kind of utopian society where rosy-cheeked white babies frolick on the village green whilst their dads enjoy a game of cricket and mum sips Pimms outside a rustic inn and that's quite appealing to a certain sector of the population.

 

The thing is, most of the people I know that have considered voting for them are only really qualified to do exactly the jobs that are often filled by migrant workers in the economy today.

 

On the face of it, that would seem to give the "coming over here taking our jobs" argument more credibility - in that sector of the economy there appears to be a ring of truth about it, but as someone that spent ten years working for the Employment Department I can tell you that much of the problem is actually down to kids leaving school with virtually no skills that an employer values, no work ethic at all and yet a massive sense of entitlement.

 

They have no interest in doing those jobs in the service sector because they feel they're beneath them and after a couple of years on the dole, they build up huge resentment against society in general because they're incapable of the introspection required to accept what's actually caused their situation.

 

When I go to McDonalds in Manchester on the way to work, I'm served by Poles, Chinese and Nigerians. When I'm leaving work and the cleaner is coming round, she's Lithuanian. If I catch the bus home, the driver is Polish. Last time I went to a hotel, the receptionist, barman and waitress were all Eastern European. The nearest takeaway to my house that's not owned by either Bangladeshis, Pakistanis or Chinese is about a mile away and shuts at 10.00pm. It's the same the world over, it's about ten years since I went to Los Angeles and pretty much every one of the above jobs was performed by Mexicans, other South American immigrants or African Americans.

 

Migrant workers aren't taking jobs, they're doing the jobs that our relatively rich society has consigned to the margins as being unfit for our evolved selves. The value placed on some of the most essential jobs in our society has diminished massively over the years.

 

The very first thing anyone should ask when considering a vote for a Political party is "are their poilicies sound?" Potential BNP voters should ask themselves who they see cleaning their streets, offices and hotel rooms, driving their buses, serving their drinks and working in their shops and warehouses for £5.73 an hour. More to the point, if they have no qualifications, no busines accumen and no capital, they should be asking themselves "Do I see myself doing it?" because if the answer is no, they might as well forget the idea.

 

The second question they should ask themselves is "Do I like kebabs?"

 

 

That's a top post that, but I think there are other factors at play too with regards shit jobs.

 

I think our benefit system is fair, while our employment system isn't, and that creates friction.

 

Bare in mind that someone who receives benefits will probably be losing out financially if he or she takes a minimum wage job, when you factor in things like loss of Housing Benefit, council tax benefit etc.

 

But when Polish workers first started coming to Britain, the average wage over there was £150 a month. Even on minimum wage they're pulling in probably £850. That's like me going somewhere and getting £8,500 a month for mopping floors - I'd deffo have some of that.

 

These are two completely different workforces competing for jobs, one of which has a lot more to gain, so it's no wonder they're often better at it and more willing to graft.

 

It's a form of slavery in a sense. If corporate Britain was willing to pay people a humane wage, the massive benefit culture and immigration wouldn't be an issue. As things stand though, we've seen waves of immigrants come to Britain and deployed on production lines for as long as they're needed - then just left to suffer the wrath of a marginalised white working class.

 

No effort that I can see has ever been put into race relations, or into intergrating generations of immigrants into the host society, they're just brought in to do the shit jobs, and social fallout be damned.

 

There are places, a lot of places, where neighbouring estates exist in states of perpetual conflict with each other because of this failure to tackle these issues. Multi culturalism doesn't exist in this country, IMO, and in many cases the lower rungs of society are factionalised.

[RoboRiise]

That's a top post that, but I think there are other factors at play too with regards shit jobs.

 

I think our benefit system is fair, while our employment system isn't, and that creates friction.

 

Bare in mind that someone who receives benefits will probably be losing out financially if he or she takes a minimum wage job, when you factor in things like loss of Housing Benefit, council tax benefit etc.

 

But when Polish workers first started coming to Britain, the average wage over there was £150 a month. Even on minimum wage they're pulling in probably £850. That's like me going somewhere and getting £8,500 a month for mopping floors - I'd deffo have some of that.

 

These are two completely different workforces competing for jobs, one of which has a lot more to gain, so it's no wonder they're often better at it and more willing to graft.

 

It's a form of slavery in a sense. If corporate Britain was willing to pay people a humane wage, the massive benefit culture and immigration wouldn't be an issue. As things stand though, we've seen waves of immigrants come to Britain and deployed on production lines for as long as they're needed - then just left to suffer the wrath of a marginalised white working class.

 

No effort that I can see has ever been put into race relations, or into intergrating generations of immigrants into the host society, they're just brought in to do the shit jobs, and social fallout be damned.

 

There are places, a lot of places, where neighbouring estates exist in states of perpetual conflict with each other because of this failure to tackle these issues. Multi culturalism doesn't exist in this country, IMO, and in many cases the lower rungs of society are factionalised.

 

 

You're absolutely right (the first three quotes from Deus Ex in your sig are particularly pertinent) but I believe that we have to deal with the world as it is for now. Global economic revolution is unlikely but over time, evolution may be possible.

[Kopite]

Mark Collett's sister has massive boobs. She doesn't share his views thank God, but has immense t*ts. Whahey!

[RoboRiise]

I'm angry with Labour, in fact "angry" hardly does my feelings justice, but I'm not angry enough to vote for a bunch of unreconstructed NF cocksmokers.

[Kopite]

I'm angry with Labour, in fact "angry" hardly does my feelings justice, but I'm not angry enough to vote for a bunch of unreconstructed NF cocksmokers.

 

The thing is mate THEY ARE ALL THE BLOODY SAME. There is nothing between any of the main parties now.

 

Just my opinion.

[Kopite]

I've tried to find some photo's of Mark Collett's sister as her boobs are massive.

 

I apologise to you all but I can't find any. Little help?

[Antynwa]

We need an English Barack Obama.

[Stu Monty]

Is this a parody or something? I hate all this 'there are lots of stupid people out there' stuff, it's just unbelievable arrogance. Then to say that 'they' may be genetically inferior?

 

If the Tories get in and instigate sensible immigration policies then the BNP will fade away like the NF did in the 80s.

 

We've had migration into this country on an unprecedented scale in the last ten years hence there are legitimate concerns about immigration and so follows the rise of the BNP.

 

 

How is it arrogant to say there are a lot of stupid people? There are, I'm not going to pretend that there isn't and can't see how you can claim there isn't.

 

I wasn't saying that they are genetically inferior. The mention of genetics is because we are on the verge of being able to tamper with our own, and our children's, genes; it is not unrealistic to see the rich making themselves genetically superior to the poor in the near future.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I've tried to find some photo's of Mark Collett's sister as her boobs are massive.

 

I apologise to you all but I can't find any. Little help?

Can you draw them?

[Guest The Big Green Bastard]

How is it arrogant to say there are a lot of stupid people? There are, I'm not going to pretend that there isn't and can't see how you can claim there isn't.

 

I wasn't saying that they are genetically inferior. The mention of genetics is because we are on the verge of being able to tamper with our own, and our children's, genes; it is not unrealistic to see the rich making themselves genetically superior to the poor in the near future.

 

If i win the lottery i'm going to get a bigger willy.

[Dr.Filth]

If i win the lottery i'm going to get a bigger willy.

 

I'm gonna make mine smaller.

[Faustus]

Stu, the main issue I've got with your view is how you seem to be making a link between a lack of education and racism.

 

How the BNP work is that they tap into peoples' insecurities and fears. Education, or lack of it, has nothing to do with that.

 

For example, Nick Griffin is an absolutely repulsive human being, but there's no doubt he's an educated man, given that he studied at Cambridge.

 

There's no doubt that that a number of disenfranchised white working classes are targets for the BNP, but the fact they aren't educated (at least in the conventional sense) has nothing to do with that. Basically, the BNP are giving them a target for their grievances, be it the Poles taking their jobs or other foreigners etc. As I said, they're tapping into their fears and insecurities.

 

There isn't a link between lack of education and racism, because the BNP also look to target the middle classes who look at the Asians who've moved in next door to them and fear more of them moving into their street. The same time, they target similar people who are fearful of seeing their towns and cities gradually becoming more multicultural and feel that things are different from what they knew.

 

Education has nothing to do with it because everybody has certain fears and insecurities in life. It's just that, as I said, the BNP direct them towards a certain target.

 

It's the same that happened in Nazi Germany when their country was on it's knees after the First World War, the Weimar Republic and hyperinflation. The Nazis directed the fears and insecurities of the German people towards a target. The BNP work on the same level and target people from all walks of life.

 

Two of my mates could quite easily be targets for the BNP. Both left school at 16 with fuck all in the way of qualifications and one has been out of work since October after losing his job as a manual labourer. The other has recently been made redundant from his job as a builder and both are struggling to find work. The BNP could look to capitalise on this by telling them that foreigners have taken their jobs, but they know it's just a load of bollocks and that it's a reflection of the economic state of the country. Both have little in the way of education, but both are as repulsed by the BNP as I am.

 

Have a look at that leaked list of people who were confirmed members of the BNP. There were people on there who were doctors and teachers. I even think there was a solicitor on there. Basically, educated people who are subscribing to the BNP's message of hate. As I've said before, there's no link between a lack of education and racism, because the BNP look to channel people's worries towards a target. Whether or not you're willing to accept their scapegoat as a legitimate one has nothing to do with the level of your intelligence.

[sparta7]

The tories certainly think the rich are superior.

 

I think you will find "New" Labour do too, certainly Blair did.

[Guest The Chimp]

If I could rep you Faustus, I surely would. A great post mate.

[Guest The Chimp]

I think you will find "New" Labour do too, certainly Blair did.

 

Yep - spot on Sparta. The question is when does one end (Tories) and the other begin (Labour)? For an old trade unionist like myself (although very far 'removed' from that life now) it truly is sickening. I did my post graduate studies at Warwick (the richest uni in the UK) and Blair absolutely loved "us" - he was always there.

[Stu Monty]

Stu, the main issue I've got with your view is how you seem to be making a link between a lack of education and racism.

 

How the BNP work is that they tap into peoples' insecurities and fears. Education, or lack of it, has nothing to do with that.

 

For example, Nick Griffin is an absolutely repulsive human being, but there's no doubt he's an educated man, given that he studied at Cambridge.

 

There's no doubt that that a number of disenfranchised white working classes are targets for the BNP, but the fact they aren't educated (at least in the conventional sense) has nothing to do with that. Basically, the BNP are giving them a target for their grievances, be it the Poles taking their jobs or other foreigners etc. As I said, they're tapping into their fears and insecurities.

 

There isn't a link between lack of education and racism, because the BNP also look to target the middle classes who look at the Asians who've moved in next door to them and fear more of them moving into their street. The same time, they target similar people who are fearful of seeing their towns and cities gradually becoming more multicultural and feel that things are different from what they knew.

 

Education has nothing to do with it because everybody has certain fears and insecurities in life. It's just that, as I said, the BNP direct them towards a certain target.

 

It's the same that happened in Nazi Germany when their country was on it's knees after the First World War, the Weimar Republic and hyperinflation. The Nazis directed the fears and insecurities of the German people towards a target. The BNP work on the same level and target people from all walks of life.

 

Two of my mates could quite easily be targets for the BNP. Both left school at 16 with fuck all in the way of qualifications and one has been out of work since October after losing his job as a manual labourer. The other has recently been made redundant from his job as a builder and both are struggling to find work. The BNP could look to capitalise on this by telling them that foreigners have taken their jobs, but they know it's just a load of bollocks and that it's a reflection of the economic state of the country. Both have little in the way of education, but both are as repulsed by the BNP as I am.

 

Have a look at that leaked list of people who were confirmed members of the BNP. There were people on there who were doctors and teachers. I even think there was a solicitor on there. Basically, educated people who are subscribing to the BNP's message of hate. As I've said before, there's no link between a lack of education and racism, because the BNP look to channel people's worries towards a target. Whether or not you're willing to accept their scapegoat as a legitimate one has nothing to do with the level of your intelligence.

 

There's a lot of good points in there, and a lot of it makes perfect sense. I do tend to think, though, that with better education people tend to be more socially and geographically mobile and that leads to far more interaction with people of other races. I should really look for some figures on it but I do think education is a factor, even if not the most dominant factor, in the emergance of racist views. If you take a poor, and poorly educated, community of predominantly one race then you have to ask yourself what the best way is for people to interact with other races and get a different look at things. For me it's education that opens doorways to new people, new places and new thoughts.

 

As I say, it may not be the defining factor but it is important. Obviously when you look at the Mail readership you can see how big a part the lack of multi-culturalism in certain areas plays a big part too. This almost certainly comes from the human evolutionary drive of fearing the unknown.

[Section_31]

There's a lot of good points in there, and a lot of it makes perfect sense. I do tend to think, though, that with better education people tend to be more socially and geographically mobile and that leads to far more interaction with people of other races. I should really look for some figures on it but I do think education is a factor, even if not the most dominant factor, in the emergance of racist views. If you take a poor, and poorly educated, community of predominantly one race then you have to ask yourself what the best way is for people to interact with other races and get a different look at things. For me it's education that opens doorways to new people, new places and new thoughts.

 

As I say, it may not be the defining factor but it is important. Obviously when you look at the Mail readership you can see how big a part the lack of multi-culturalism in certain areas plays a big part too. This almost certainly comes from the human evolutionary drive of fearing the unknown.

 

 

I think you've hit on something there which I've mentioned in the past when it comes to the BNP, and that is social mobility. Many of us on here have an education and skills under our belts, we also have the means to reinvent ourselves to an extent when the economy changes, and also to move around geographically to go where the jobs are.

 

But

 

There are a lot of people who can't do any of those things. The people at the bottom of the pile are the ones who are most often affected in a negative sense by mass immigration, it's they who drop down the social housing lists, and it's they that see their wages go down - as foreign workers more often than not take up jobs in manual work, building sites, factories etc.

 

Concerns over immigration aren't always about race, they're about the practicalities of having a great mass of people dropped on an area from on high, all at once, taking up resources such as schools and GPs. It would be no less of an issue if you took half of Newcastle and dropped it on Liverpool - there would be tensions before long if there weren't enough resources to go around, and if wages were driven down due to the fact there was so much new labour available - whether these people were English or not.

 

Communities must grow organically, jolting growth - which is what we've seen in many parts of the country - causes problems.

 

The problem was created by successive Governments, and it's a result of encouraging waves of immigration as a source of cheap labour, shoving people together, and giving no thought to the fallout. As a result there are whole parts of towns which are dominated by one race, and where outsiders are not tolerated - and this isn't just whites I'm talking about, but black and asian too.

 

My mate is educated and has a good job, he comes from Oldham and has recently just moved back, but he describes where he's living as a 'white enclave'. He said "it's alright though because there's a white council estate which act as a 'bulwark' against the 'encroachment' of the Asian estate." He reckons it works both ways, and that if a white family moves into an Asian area, they are also driven out, and some measure of equilibrium is maintained.

 

It's fucked up, I couldn't live somewhere where people thought like that, but I'm lucky in that I can move, as could most of us on here, but I dare say those who can't, hold that as a source of frustration that contributes to their views.

 

The higher up the chain you are, the better the job you have, and the nicer the area you live, I'd argue you see the best of a multi-racial society. The friends of other races etc, but at the bottom - I'd suggest it can be a wholly different picture, there are racial fault lines in this country, extremely deep ones, and the lower down the food chain you are, the deeper those lines seem.

[Teflon Don]

Some excellent stuff on here and despite the arguments about why the BNP are having a resurgence of support, I think we can all agree that they should, can and must be stopped from gaining electoral ground next week. The way to do it is to make sure you get out and cast your vote for anyone other than the BNP - even if you want to 'protest' against the mainstream parties, there are alternatives like the Green Party.

 

I was out in Norris Green the Saturday before last doing a door-to-door with an anti-BNP newspaper produced by Hope Not Hate (in association with the Daily Mirror), whose website is worth a look at HOPE not hate.

[Faustus]

There's a lot of good points in there, and a lot of it makes perfect sense. I do tend to think, though, that with better education people tend to be more socially and geographically mobile and that leads to far more interaction with people of other races. I should really look for some figures on it but I do think education is a factor, even if not the most dominant factor, in the emergance of racist views. If you take a poor, and poorly educated, community of predominantly one race then you have to ask yourself what the best way is for people to interact with other races and get a different look at things. For me it's education that opens doorways to new people, new places and new thoughts.

 

As I say, it may not be the defining factor but it is important. Obviously when you look at the Mail readership you can see how big a part the lack of multi-culturalism in certain areas plays a big part too. This almost certainly comes from the human evolutionary drive of fearing the unknown.

 

Some good points there, Stu, and a few I agree with. General ignorance and poor education does contribute to the reasons why some people have racist views, but I don't think it's fair to say it's the defining factor, even though the BNP look to target this section of society.

 

I realise it's probably not what you meant in your original post, but you seemed to intrinsically link poor education and racist views together, as if the two always go hand in hand together, when I think it's a lot more complex than that.

 

As I've said, I think it's a case of the BNP preying on peoples' insecurities and fears to maximise their voting potential. For the section of society you described, their insecurities stem from the fact that they may not have a means to support their families in these tough economic times. The BNP are giving them a physical target such as the Poles, Asians etc who are coming over and threaten to take away their livelihood.

 

As I've said in my earlier post, the same could be said about predominantly white middle class environments, whereby people could be fearful of, say, a black or Asian family moving into their street and are worried about more moving in around them and changing the faces of the towns and the cities that they've been used to.

 

Sometimes as well, it's a case of simply a person letting a bad experience with an individual for a particular race let them cloud their judgements as a whole. I know that is down to general ignorance, but even educated people are ignorance, to an extent. Whether or not that is (wrongly) directed towards members of a certain race is another matter. I used to work part-time in a solicitors and I was aware of a number of my colleagues, all educated people who'd graduated from university, who held racist views based on bad personal experiences.

 

I just thought it was worth throwing in the example of my two mates who've had little in the way of conventional education and are struggling to find work, yet are absolutely apallaed by the BNP and don't have a single racist bone in their bodies. By contrast, a lad I know has just graduated from uni with an accountancy degree and harbours a number of racist opinions.

 

I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but I do think that there are a number of factors at play in explaining racist views rather than just squarely pointing the finger towards poor education (even though I agree that it is factor in some, even if it's a bit of a generalisation).

 

As I've said, I think they're based on the three entities of fear, insecurity and ignorance and the BNP simply look to solidify these into visual targets for their own despicable ends. Even the educated suffer from these conditions from time to time, but it's ultimately down to whether or not the individual in question is actually willing to subscribe to their messages of hate and intolerance.

[RSM]

I'd like some of the BNP supporters whom frequent these forums to explain what draws them to such a party.

[Stu Monty]

Speedbumps; if I remember rightly.

[SpeedyG]

How is it arrogant to say there are a lot of stupid people? There are, I'm not going to pretend that there isn't and can't see how you can claim there isn't.

 

I wasn't saying that they are genetically inferior. The mention of genetics is because we are on the verge of being able to tamper with our own, and our children's, genes; it is not unrealistic to see the rich making themselves genetically superior to the poor in the near future.

 

Always bear in mind though that there is a guy one rung higher upper the ladder than you, saying the exact something and with the exact same justification as you.

[SpeedyG]

I'm not sure if this is relevant or whether it is really the case. But I kind of get the impression that a culture of blame has taken over. No sooner does something go wrong than everyone is rallying around making gargantuan efforts to find someone to blame on whom all pent up emotions can be directed.

 

It seems to be a pretty insatiable appetite easily fed by the likes of the BNP it's a pretty simple exercise to generalize and point the finger at a suitable stereotype.

[Stouffer]

It also reels off a list of great British victories and battles, but makes no mention of the other races that fought for us in those battles. Wonder what the BNP have to say about the rights of Gurkhas to stay here?

 

That was the general gist of a BNP PEB that was televised on ITV at 1830 yesterday, absolute joke.

 

GF legs ruling damn hard on this thread.