Wenger vs Rafa

[philyhamann]

You have some valid criticisms of Rafa particularly on the young players thread so why type something like that?

 

The Mancs & the Chavs especially, vastly outspend us. We have a similar footballing budget to Arse but spend less on wages,more on transfers.

(They spent over £100m last season alone on salaries)

So on financial terms we should be in a battle for 3rd which is ,er, exactly where we have been for 3 seasons & will be this.

 

I would be surprised about the salaries, considering they were willing to let Adebayor go and wouldn't give him 100k, while we have at least 3 near that or above it. I just think after 100-110m spent, we should be challenging for the league. I'm not sure on the Mancs figures, its late but I bet we've spent more than them and we still finish miles behind. I mean, they have some players they've bought for mega bucks in the past, but at the same time if we didn't waste so much money on mediocrity we wouldn't have to do so much wheeling and dealing.

[Roy Hobbs]

Wenger knew how to win the League prior to Chelsea changing the goal posts. The current standard required to win the Premiership has alluded him, as it has Rafa.

 

:yes: well said

[Roy Hobbs]

I would be surprised about the salaries, considering they were willing to let Adebayor go and wouldn't give him 100k, while we have at least 3 near that or above it. I just think after 100-110m spent, we should be challenging for the league. I'm not sure on the Mancs figures, its late but I bet we've spent more than them and we still finish miles behind. I mean, they have some players they've bought for mega bucks in the past, but at the same time if we didn't waste so much money on mediocrity we wouldn't have to do so much wheeling and dealing.

 

Based on the figures I've seen posted both last and this year Arsenal pay about 10M GBP more in wages than us. Surprised me as well TBH.

[Benitaur]

Personally I would replace Rafa with Wenger given the chance. Rafa's great but he's not going to win us the league I'm afraid, whereas Wenger knows what it takes to win the Premiership, and would do wonders with this squad.

 

Thats an ignorant statement that gets repeated all too often here.

 

There is no "secret" to winning the Premiership. Just because you have won it before doesn't mean that you have some magical knowledge. It just means that you are ahead of the curve in management terms.

 

Name who was Wenger up against? Fergie, who isn't a tactical genius (just superior players). Now that Queiroz has left, he is reverting back to his outmoded tactics.

 

It is more difficult since managers the calibre of Rafa and Mourinho (now Scolari) entered the scene. These guys are among the world's best, arguably top 5 at any given year.

 

These are top top managers who have won numerous trophies in other leagues. Not to mention Erickssen, O'Niel and now Ramos who are no slouches either.

 

The thread started off factually. Head to head, Rafa has the superior record in trophies and achievements since he has been here with us.

 

No doubt, Wenger currently has the best record for "discovering and developing" youngsters. So far. He has had more than 10 years to develop this.

 

Rafa just started 2 years ago, and has already won back to back reserve FA Cops and the league. Give Rafa 10 years, THEN it will be fair to compete youngsters

 

Besides, I doubt Wenger can duplicate what he has achieved in Arsenal anywhere else. So even in some fantasy world where we did get Wenger instead of Rafa years ago, he would only have gotten at most the backing Rafa has, and achieved far less. Fancy football, no doubt, but nowhere near as many trophies

[PaulMcC]

Rafa is better manager than Wenger.

[Dublin Red]

Rafa is better manager than Wenger.

 

 

They are both successful managers at the top level.

 

The main difference being Wenger's teams play great, attacking football, Rafa's certainly do not. :(

 

Different philosophys......chalk & cheese really

[PaulMcC]

The main difference is that Wenger's teams have won less than Liverpool since Rafa has been in charge.

[Dublin Red]

The main difference is that Wenger's teams have won less than Liverpool since Rafa has been in charge.

 

 

Surely that is more down to the emergence of the chavs than anything Rafa has done.

 

Wenger has won 3 prems, (runner up 5 times), 4 FA cups and 1 CL final runner up over 12 years.

 

Rafa has won the CL, (plus runner up) and an FA cup over 4 years.

 

As I said, they are both successful in their own right but Wenger's teams play totally different football to Rafa's. Rafa could well go on to winning titles but, for me, it's the approach by each manager which is the main difference.

[Catch22]

Surely that is more down to the emergence of the chavs than anything Rafa has done.

 

Wenger has won 3 prems, (runner up 5 times), 4 FA cups and 1 CL final runner up over 12 years.

 

Rafa has won the CL, (plus runner up) and an FA cup over 4 years.

 

As I said, they are both successful in their own right but Wenger's teams play totally different football to Rafa's. Rafa could well go on to winning titles but, for me, it's the approach by each manager which is the main difference.

 

 

 

There is a world outside of England you know.....

 

How can you not include Rafa'a La Liga's?

 

In the 3 year period when they both won 2 domestic titles, La Liga won 1 CL & 1 Uefa Cup whilst the PL won nothing.

La Liga gained more co-efficeint points & won more of the head-to-heads

 

By any objective standards it was a tougher league.

 

And Rafa added the Uefa Cup

[Dublin Red]

There is a world outside of England you know.....

 

How can you not include Rafa'a La Liga's?

 

In the 3 year period when they both won 2 domestic titles, La Liga won 1 CL & 1 Uefa Cup whilst the PL won nothing.

La Liga gained more co-efficeint points & won more of the head-to-heads

 

By any objective standards it was a tougher league.

 

And Rafa added the Uefa Cup

 

 

Totally forgot about La Liga.

 

Not denying who has won more but my point is I believe the real difference between the two men is their style of football.

[El Rojo]

 

These are top top managers who have won numerous trophies in other leagues. Not to mention Erickssen, O'Niel and now Ramos who are no slouches either.

 

 

A brief aside on Spurs and Ramos.

 

Even taking into account having to work with a joke chairman and a director of football, Ramos appears to be woefully unsuited to the Premiership.

 

Some of his side's performances over the last year have been shocking - even against poor opposition and before the club inexpicably let their three best strikers go.

 

I think time will prove that he's yet another dreadful Spurs manager.

[KevieG]

Wenger inherited a world class back four. Rafa inherited Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher. That also says alot.

 

To be fair Rafa got,

Carra coming into the form of his career, Hyypia in his pomp, Riise Finnan

 

Arguably the best back four in the league at the time.

[Stu Monty]

 

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to The Party Boy".

[Catch22]

A brief aside on Spurs and Ramos.

 

Even taking into account having to work with a joke chairman and a director of football, Ramos appears to be woefully unsuited to the Premiership.

 

Some of his side's performances over the last year have been shocking - even against poor opposition and before the club inexpicably let their three best strikers go.

 

I think time will prove that he's yet another dreadful Spurs manager.

 

 

Seville's success is almost a perfect advert for the director of football model.

 

Del Nido is an excellent President who always extracts maximum value when he sells (Alves,Reyes,Baptista,Ramos etc)

Mochi is the best director of football in Europe & spots talent accordingly.

They have one of the top 3 academies in Europe (Reyes,Navas)

They make maximum use of the easier work permit rules & cultural links that Spain has with SAmerica (Alves)

 

Ramos was a better than average coach who was in the right time/right place when that all flowered.

Arguably they should have won La Liga in 2007

 

Spurs on the other hand are the best advert against a director of football model as their President over-trades & sells the last minute whilst the Director of Football is a moron.

[Benitaur]

To be fair Rafa got,

Carra coming into the form of his career, Hyypia in his pomp, Riise Finnan

 

Arguably the best back four in the league at the time.

 

IMO Hyypia was getting towards the end of his prime, and is still holding on. But after this is the decline, and I for one hopes he retires with us before that happens

 

Carra's reputation was made by Rafa. IMO under another manager, he wouldn't be the defender he is today. The same way Rafa made Ayala, Pellegrino etc. They were good defenders, no doubt. But under Rafa, they became renown as among the world's best. Post Rafa, they declined sharply too, which to me proves that its the tactics and formation, not the player.

 

Finnan no doubt was revived under Rafa, but was slowly declining

 

Riise didn't really improve, and went downhill. He did have his moments attacking wise though, but was not a good LB otherwise. Not smart enough

 

Arguably the best back four in the league? I for one won't be championing that argument.

[Benitaur]

A brief aside on Spurs and Ramos.

 

Even taking into account having to work with a joke chairman and a director of football, Ramos appears to be woefully unsuited to the Premiership.

 

Some of his side's performances over the last year have been shocking - even against poor opposition and before the club inexpicably let their three best strikers go.

 

I think time will prove that he's yet another dreadful Spurs manager.

 

I don't disagree with that now in hindsight and he is in the second season and drowning.

 

But I do remember arguments with fellow members either here or another forum I frequent, that they thought we got the wrong Spanish manager. Ramos they argued was better, and promoted more attacking and attractive football. I had arguments with several Spurs fans too on the same topic

 

Jokes on them now :whoops:

[05 Milan]

I don't disagree with that now in hindsight and he is in the second season and drowning.

 

But I do remember arguments with fellow members either here or another forum I frequent, that they thought we got the wrong Spanish manager. Ramos they argued was better, and promoted more attacking and attractive football. I had arguments with several Spurs fans too on the same topic

 

Jokes on them now :whoops:

 

I remember one former TLW-member doing his regular line of

 

"Manager X....I love the way his teams play", in this case Ramos. Made me cringe like hell every time.

[coop]

[Kopite]

Arsenal - 1

Hull City - 2

 

Maybe Wenger should have played the Justice League, sorry his superhuman kids...