Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Bobby Hundreds]

A decision the Tories gave the country because they where worried they might lose votes to ukip and might.. might! not be in charge for a bit.

[clangers]

Nice to see David Davis admitting the impact of Brexit economically could be similar to the 2008 credit crunch or the 1930's depression. Pity as a leave campaigner he didn't mention that at the time of the referendum.

[Anubis]

Aaaaaand just when you thought we were through the barrel and scraping stone...

 

 

[mattyq]

That the best endorsement I could have hoped for thanks.

 

The idea that you alone have seen through the fog and has the solution is lovely.

I'd have TheGuest as our new Chief Negotiater...he's clearly better than David Davies

[Rico1304]

I'd have TheGuest as our new Chief Negotiater...he's clearly better than David Davies

To be fair that’s like being the best looking bloke in the burns unit.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I ignored Rico’s post because he’s a boring Tory who writes nonsense. Ive just gone back to it to see what the content was to find out I did the right thing in the first place. The article he posted said that there was a benefit of paying the Brexit bill if it gained access to free trade which is what I’ve been writing now for the past 10 posts or so. It seems he’s another one of these guys who thinks he can post something and link an article hoping nobody will read it because that was not what was written in it. The article was another opinion article from the independent as well and with not much on the facts side but that I happen to agree with.

So, you agree that there are benefits to paying the divorce bill? Which obviously means that there are disbenefits to not paying it.

 

Yet you're advocating we don't pay it, despite that being against our economic interest?

 

 

I'm done here. You win.

[The Guest]

So, you agree that there are benefits to paying the divorce bill? Which obviously means that there are disbenefits to not paying it.

 

Yet you're advocating we don't pay it, despite that being against our economic interest?

 

 

I'm done here. You win.

The first point I made that seems to have got everyone in a spin is that there’s no point in us paying the Brexit bill unless it gets us a good trade deal. If we pay that up before getting the trade deal signed off then we lose our leverage. I reckon I’ve said it now about ten times. Rico then comes along and says “here’s somebody saying it’s in our economic benefit to pay the Brexit bill.” So I read it and it says exactly what I’m saying. That if paying the bill gets us access to the single market then we should pay it. If it doesn’t then why should we?

 

I’m glad you’ve taken the loss. It’s character building.

[cloggypop]

The UK has no leverage though. It's purposely put itself into a shit position where it has to decide politically how shit a position it actually wants to be in. Every possible position is worse than the one it started in and is guaranteed to piss off a certain percentage of the people who actually want to leave, never mind the sane ones who want to stay.

[deiseach]

The UK has no leverage though. It's purposely put itself into a shit position where it has to decide politically how shit a position it actually wants to be in. Every possible position is worse than the one it started in and is guaranteed to piss off a certain percentage of the people who actually want to leave, never mind the sane ones who want to stay.

 

In Brexiteer Bizarro World, the UK insists that it is leaving the customs union, the single market, and the jurisdiction of the ECJ, yet the EU is the intransigent one when it points out that these decisions have consequences.

[The Guest]

The UK has no leverage though. It's purposely put itself into a shit position where it has to decide politically how shit a position it actually wants to be in. Every possible position is worse than the one it started in and is guaranteed to piss off a certain percentage of the people who actually want to leave, never mind the sane ones who want to stay.

They do have leverage. An estimated 50bn pounds worth. I’m not arguing that Britain is in a shit position. Leaving the EU is a stupid idea. It’s happening though and when it does paying 50bn over if we don’t get a good trade deal off the back of it would be brain dead behaviour. I’ve said this numerous times hoping it will go in but it doesn’t look like it’s going to. It baffles me why not though. It’s relatively simple.

[Rico1304]

They do have leverage. An estimated 50bn pounds worth. I’m not arguing that Britain is in a shit position. Leaving the EU is a stupid idea. It’s happening though and when it does paying 50bn over if we don’t get a good trade deal off the back of it would be brain dead behaviour. I’ve said this numerous times hoping it will go in but it doesn’t look like it’s going to. It baffles me why not though. It’s relatively simple.

Yes, it’s dead weird that only you don’t get it. Sorry, you and Nigel Farage.

 

Not that you can see this of course.

[cloggypop]

Even David Davies gets it more than the Guest.

[Anny Road]

Our net contribution is approx 8 billion a year. If we are going to contribute 50 we should be in a position to negotiate a longer transition period than the 2 years at present.

[The Guest]

Even David Davies gets it more than the Guest.

Do you mean David Davis? The actual Brexit secretary who’s been saying exactly what I’ve outlined about paying the Brexit bill and trade? You say there is no leverage but there clearly is. Half of the government, the people in charge of making these decision are saying that either everything is agreed together or nothing is agreed and we pay nothing. It’s been said plenty of times. Just because you’re too blinded or thick to see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t actually exist because it clearly does.

 

The EU might not be worried about the 50bn and they may not be bluffing but that’s not the point I’m making. If they don’t want to talk trade deals and want to fuck us over anyway then we may as well keep our money.

[cloggypop]

No. I mean the bloke out of the Kinks.

 

Ray's brother.

[Anny Road]

Its not as if the 50 bill deficit will be split between the remaining members. Most have not got a pot to piss in. It will fall upon Germany to make it up.

 

They would take a hit in trade, notably car exports and then be left to make up the bulk of deficit. Not great for them especially as their government is all over the place at the minute.

[cloggypop]

They need us more than we need them. Still.

 

Enjoy driving around in your Austin Princesses.

[magicrat]

If a picture paints a thousand words etc...

 

[magicrat]

No. I mean the bloke out of the Kinks.

 

Ray's brother.

 

"Death of a Clown" was a good song and very apt 

[Anny Road]

They need us more than we need them. Still.

 

Enjoy driving around in your Austin Princesses.

Never said that. The burden will fall on a few though rather than the EU as a whole. Greece already owes Germany close on 40 odd bill.

[deiseach]

[Jockey]

In a way - I understand why there has been no impact assessment on the numerous sectors, no acknowledgement of the negative (or positive) impact that leaving is going to have. I can see why issues such as the financial stability, future trade and general affect on living standards have not been considered - because fundamently the issue has been driven by people who have absolutely no interest in what happens to the country outside of Europe - they are simply focussed upon leaving Europe. A racists isn't interested or swayed by economic arguments, or cultural arguments they simply want blacks/muslims/foreign types gone.

 

This is what the leave campaign taps into - the notion that we, Great Britain are not beholden to Europe. This isn't to say that all those who voted leave are racists - just that the campaign from its origins was driven by racism. For David Davis and his ilk - the issue is leaving Europe, the details are irrelevant. Even now - the ramblings from the Tories are not driven by any intelect, or long term thinking - they are all about 'getting out' - the affects and impact are not important to people whose main motivation is getting out, as oppossed to the long-term health of the country.

 

That said - Europe, is being disingenuous also. They have to make it horrible, and bitter and they need the UK to fail badly - regardless of the impact that will have upon us (majority of whom could well be be pro- Europe in 10 years). They are also more than ready to see the UK fail, and actively work towards that to save the project. So, lets be honest - Europe is doing what is right for them as well - they do not care a jot about the UK. Ireland was our main trading partner when we loaned them billions to soften the blow of their financial troubles - despite austerity in the UK. Anyone who argues that Europe is a balanced, equal partnership between the countries is lying - it is driven by the interests of the wealthy northern-european countries, with the poorer countries beholden and indebted to their partners.

 

In short. We, the 48% who voted to remain have been screwed by self-interest - the self-interest and ignorance of the Baby Boomers, and the self-interest of the rest of Europe who need to set an example and fuck the collatoral damage.

[magicrat]

Never said that. The burden will fall on a few though rather than the EU as a whole. Greece already owes Germany close on 40 odd bill.

 

Seems Greece are doing better than us

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek-economy-now-growing-faster-than-the-uk-2017-9

[magicrat]

In a way - I understand why there has been no impact assessment on the numerous sectors, no acknowledgement of the negative (or positive) impact that leaving is going to have. I can see why issues such as the financial stability, future trade and general affect on living standards have not been considered - because fundamently the issue has been driven by people who have absolutely no interest in what happens to the country outside of Europe - they are simply focussed upon leaving Europe. A racists isn't interested or swayed by economic arguments, or cultural arguments they simply want blacks/muslims/foreign types gone.

 

This is what the leave campaign taps into - the notion that we, Great Britain are not beholden to Europe. This isn't to say that all those who voted leave are racists - just that the campaign from its origins was driven by racism. For David Davis and his ilk - the issue is leaving Europe, the details are irrelevant. Even now - the ramblings from the Tories are not driven by any intelect, or long term thinking - they are all about 'getting out' - the affects and impact are not important to people whose main motivation is getting out, as oppossed to the long-term health of the country.

 

That said - Europe, is being disingenuous also. They have to make it horrible, and bitter and they need the UK to fail badly - regardless of the impact that will have upon us (majority of whom could well be be pro- Europe in 10 years). They are also more than ready to see the UK fail, and actively work towards that to save the project. So, lets be honest - Europe is doing what is right for them as well - they do not care a jot about the UK. Ireland was our main trading partner when we loaned them billions to soften the blow of their financial troubles - despite austerity in the UK. Anyone who argues that Europe is a balanced, equal partnership between the countries is lying - it is driven by the interests of the wealthy northern-european countries, with the poorer countries beholden and indebted to their partners.

 

In short. We, the 48% who voted to remain have been screwed by self-interest - the self-interest and ignorance of the Baby Boomers, and the self-interest of the rest of Europe who need to set an example and fuck the collatoral damage.

 

I agree with most of that, Remain is by far the least worst option,  Said many times the EU is not a level playing field and transparency in many areas is lacking or in some cases missing completely. It keeps the peace and allows its citizens to travel , work and live across the continent which to my mind is worth a hell of lot and something that my kids have benefited from and should remain a right for all young people.

Britain should be at the centre driving reforms not blaming its own failures on Brussels,   

[Jockey]

I wouldn't wish to lecture anyone who voted leave on what to do.

 

But - after seeing the minister responsible for negotiating Brexit - admitting that we haven't 'bothered' with any impact assessments, listening to the likes of Grayling talk up walking away with  no deal as being an option. Do you not look at this behaviour and think 'I am not sure they are telling us the truth about leaving'?

 

And if so, would you change your vote?