Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[skend04]

Those poor migrants coming over here, stealing our jobs and inflating our house prices. The bastards!

[Kloppite]

Those poor migrants coming over here, stealing our jobs and inflating our house prices. The bastards!

Dont see how theyre doing that cause i have yet to meet one who owns a house

[skend04]

Dont see how theyre doing that cause i have yet to meet one who owns a house

[Red Phoenix]

Red Phoenix sees a conspiracy in everything.

 

Ironically, the only conspiracy here is the one playing him like a fool into supporting the hugely regressive Leave campaign.

 

Yeah, figures that you'd get suckered in by that chart easily.

[Boss]

The price of houses is largely effected by the availability of houses. There's a reason most governments don't build so many houses because they have more of a vested interest in keeping the value of property high.

 

When you open up the housing market to a possible 508m people, then the house prices are going to increase. That's perfectly logical, it's supply and demand. Especially if your country is one of the most desirable destinations to live within the EU (especially cities like London). I'd say that's more of a reason why the housing prices have increased rather than the government not building more houses.

 

The government can only build so many houses anyway, we're a tiny country, 1/3 the size of Texas. Where do people propose we build all these houses? London will end up like Blade Runner, cities built on top of cities. Nuke it, go back.... we fucked it all up.

[SasaS]

I don't think immigrants pushing the property prices up in London are coming from within the EU. Russia, Nigeria and Qatar are not in the EU:

How big are the immigrant numbers down to free movement of people in the EU vs. other immigration, what is the ratio?

[Cardie]

When you open up the housing market to a possible 508m people, then the house prices are going to increase. That's perfectly logical, it's supply and demand. Especially if your country is one of the most desirable destinations to live within the EU (especially cities like London). I'd say that's more of a reason why the housing prices have increased rather than the government not building more houses.

 

The government can only build so many houses anyway, we're a tiny country, 1/3 the size of Texas. Where do people propose we build all these houses? London will end up like Blade Runner, cities built on top of cities. Nuke it, go back.... we fucked it all up.

 

State enforced sterilization or Chinese style population control it is then, housing issue sorted.

 

What's next?

[magicrat]

I don't think immigrants pushing the property prices up in London are coming from within the EU. Russia, Nigeria and Qatar are not in the EU:

How big are the immigrant numbers down to free movement of people in the EU vs. other immigration, what is the ratio?

Does it occur to anyone Brits distort property markets all over Europe. I doubt very much immigrants have that much effect here but anyway vote brexit and the pesky fuckers will all be gone by the following Wednesday. Fucking bonkers this whole fiasco. Country in self destruct mode

[Brownie]

I don't think immigrants pushing the property prices up in London are coming from within the EU. Russia, Nigeria and Qatar are not in the EU:

 

How big are the immigrant numbers down to free movement of people in the EU vs. other immigration, what is the ratio?

Pretty much 50/50.

[Gnasher]

What on earth would make anyone think that the Tories want a state owned rail service?

I'm not saying they do. The leader of the Labour party does. The EU does not.

[skend04]

When you open up the housing market to a possible 508m people, then the house prices are going to increase. That's perfectly logical, it's supply and demand. Especially if your country is one of the most desirable destinations to live within the EU (especially cities like London). I'd say that's more of a reason why the housing prices have increased rather than the government not building more houses.

 

The government can only build so many houses anyway, we're a tiny country, 1/3 the size of Texas. Where do people propose we build all these houses? London will end up like Blade Runner, cities built on top of cities. Nuke it, go back.... we fucked it all up.

There was an ipsos Mori poll out last week. It showed people, leavers, get near everything wrong when questioned about the EU referendum. This perfectly illustrates how accurate that poll was. Well done.

[Gnasher]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/france-protests-dozens-injured-clashes-police-160614144801445.html

 

 

Riots in Paris this afternoon for workers rights.

 

the EU has had its day, the people don't want it because it's neglected the people. It's a busted flush. People all across Europe fucked off being treated like shit.

[Boss]

I don't think immigrants pushing the property prices up in London are coming from within the EU. Russia, Nigeria and Qatar are not in the EU:

 

How big are the immigrant numbers down to free movement of people in the EU vs. other immigration, what is the ratio?

 

That's a very good point, i'm sure that does affect the property price market in London. Most definitely there is an influence externally, no disputing it.

[Section_31]

Pretty amusing that people generalise by accusing people who want out of the the EU or have a problem with immigration of generalising.

 

People are accusing people of following the spiel of the likes of UKIP, yet themselves have followed the spiel of new labour and Cameron's Tories, and as a result are demonizing people who they accuse of demonizing others.

 

[Spy Bee]

There was an ipsos Mori poll out last week. It showed people, leavers, get near everything wrong when questioned about the EU referendum. This perfectly illustrates how accurate that poll was. Well done.

There was no corresponding poll showing how ill informed remain voters were. There is a dearth of useful accurate information presented in the media, so unless people actively search out information they won't be well informed, especially not about complex things like percentage of investment into the UK etc. 

 

I thought that was actually a bit naughty.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

If you shit yourself because you see a few foreigners coming into the country, then, yes, you are an abject racist. No matter how many myths about neoliberals trying to drive down wages you try to invoke as a smokescreen for it.

The non-racist (and smart) response to migration is to campaign for the rights of migrant workers. Level the playing field at a decent level, so nobody gets undercut.

[skend04]

There was no corresponding poll showing how ill informed remain voters were. There is a dearth of useful accurate information presented in the media, so unless people actively search out information they won't be well informed, especially not about complex things like percentage of investment into the UK etc.

 

I thought that was actually a bit naughty.

The onus should be on those that want to leave and create uncertainty to say on what information and with what knowledge are they making their choice. In those circumstances the poll is perfectly legitimate and not naughty at all.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Unemployment was 4.8% in 2004, before Poland joined, and now it's a smidgen higher at 5.1%. But according to Boss, migrants are making it difficult for people to find work.

 

Never mind that you had to go back to the 1970s to find a lower unemployment rate.

 

Immigrants pay £2bn NET into the UK in taxes alone.

 

Lack of housing is a problem of governments not building enough new houses and not loosening planning rules. Nothing to do with the EU.

 

I've heard all the arguments in favour of leaving the EU, every single one, and not one of them has any merit whatsoever.

 

Leaving the EU is going to be an act of wanton vandalism and stupidity unseen before on this Earth.

Another often-overlooked point about immigration is the fact that the Migrant Impact Fund was scrapped in 2010.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/aug/06/fund-impact-immigration-scrapped

 

(If I remember rightly, access to English lessons was also scrapped.)

[AngryOfTuebrook]

In my experience this is a very recent development. I still maintain Farage doesn't give a toss about immigration, it's just a handy narrative and an easy weapon to bring up.

 

Most people over here hold people on benefits in disdain thanks to both Labour and the Tories and Channel 5, so they're not going to be in the slightest bit bothered about how it impacts them, likewise most jobs impacted by immigrants are low skilled.

 

I genuinely feel most people who have a gripe with immigration - and I include myself in this - are people who have been left absolutely awestruck by the scale and speed of it, entire communities changed literally overnight, It's not bigoted at all to feel concern or confusion at that.

 

The reason UKIP has grown in popularity IMO isn't through active support, it's through the notion that they're the only harbour in a perceived storm. Say you are pensioner who's lived somewhere all your life and the place has been turned upside down in the last five to 10 years and you say it's caught you off-guard and it's freaked you out to an extent, and then every single party dismisses your fears and labels you a moron and/or bigot, but then some goon stands at the end of your garden path wearing a top hat and a purple rosette and is welcoming you with open arms? 

 

People who demean those with concerns are guilty of falling into the trap that they're accusing those people of - of lazily accepting the easy narratives of someone higher up with their own agenda. 

 

Going back decades, the way mass immigration here has been handled is a disgrace. There's been no attempt by successive governments to aid integration or even educate and listen to the concerns of indigenous populations, or even provide added support to schools and medical services where they're expected to step up to the plate.

 

What's happened is what always happens in this country when it comes to deploying tools to make money:

 

(1) Labour shortage (or at least shortage of people willing to do the job for sh*t wages

(2) Open the doors

(3) People come in

(4) Industry has its fill 

(5) Bollocks to any fallout

(6) If industry doesn't need you down the line you're on your own

 

The country is filled with estates where second and  third generation immigrants feel abandoned, it's happend in France and happens here (in fact it's currently being brought up constantly with all this ISIS bollocks)

 

It wasn't always thus. Immigrants played a key role in communities, they took part in local politics and shared their music, food and culture, them the plug was pulled and they became economically useless just like whole other swathes of working class Britain, now they're just left to fester.

 

Meanwhile, the right like UKIP that want out for other reasons, mainly to do with Farage's love of the city of London no doubt, use immigration to appeal to the masses and these second and third generation communities bear the brunt. And, even though the newer waves of immigrants are still of great economic use - they're bearing the brunt now too, as Farage has used them to outmaneuver Cameron on it (Cameron who isn't arsed, because they're making money). 

 

It's all part of the same sad tapestry and it all involves our 'betters' making money and everyone else scrapping around at the bottom trying to keep their heads above water until they're no lonegr needed, and the twats at the top take them like an empty beer can and throw them over their shoulder. 

A lot of the people "awestruck" by the scale of immigration believe the scale to be much more awesome than it actually is.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

 

Not everyone who disagrees with people with concerns "demeans" them (and it's a lazy stereotype to assume we do).  It's perfectly respectful to correct someone whose beliefs are based on a lie that they have been told repeatedly, by headline writers and politicians of every major party.  Those bastards have a lot to gain by keeping working class people at odds with each other.

[cloggypop]

There was no corresponding poll showing how ill informed remain voters were. There is a dearth of useful accurate information presented in the media, so unless people actively search out information they won't be well informed, especially not about complex things like percentage of investment into the UK etc.

 

I thought that was actually a bit naughty.

I think you've brought your own bias to that

 

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3742/The-Perils-of-Perception-and-the-EU.aspx

 

[Boss]

Pretty amusing that people generalise by accusing people who want out of the the EU or have a problem with immigration of generalising. People are accusing people of following the spiel of the likes of UKIP, yet themselves have followed the spiel of new labour and Cameron's Tories, and as a result are demonizing people who they accuse of demonizing others.

 

It's standard rhetoric to quell discussion. If you want out you're an EDL supporting knuckle dragging racist. The regressive left (and i say that as a staunch left winger) has done everything in it's power to protect the people and institutions that are, ironically, diametrically opposed to their own worldview. I'd have more faith in Liberalism if it opposed Islamic fundamentalism and more faith in Socialists if they fought against cronyism and capitalism, but they don't.

 

Stronts, Cardie and Hades seem to be under the impression that we are voting to deport every ethically non white person in Britain on the 23rd of June. I thought we were voting on whether we wanted to stay in the EU.... guess i didn't receive the memo. The hyperbole on both sides has been hilarious to be honest, Stronts last line of "wanton vandalism and stupidity unseen before on Earth" particularly delicious. 

 

It will be what it will be. I personally think the people will vote to stay. It'll probably end up like the Scottish referendum, a load of back and forth over nothing. Still fun while it lasted. 

[Spy Bee]

The onus should be on those that want to leave and create uncertainty to say on what information and with what knowledge are they making their choice. In those circumstances the poll is perfectly legitimate and not naughty at all.

Why? We can't be certain what the future holds within the EU.

 

 

I think you've brought your own bias to that

 

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3742/The-Perils-of-Perception-and-the-EU.aspx

I don't think the way it was reported was objective.

[Gnasher]

If you shit yourself because you see a few foreigners coming into the country, then, yes, you are an abject racist. No matter how many myths about neoliberals trying to drive down wages you try to invoke as a smokescreen for it.

Must be a lot of fucking racists over Israel then

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported

[Cardie]

It's standard rhetoric to quell discussion. If you want out you're an EDL supporting knuckle dragging racist. The regressive left (and i say that as a staunch left winger) has done everything in it's power to protect the people and institutions that are, ironically, diametrically opposed to their own worldview. I'd have more faith in Liberalism if it opposed Islamic fundamentalism and more faith in Socialists if they fought against cronyism and capitalism, but they don't.

 

Stronts, Cardie and Hades seem to be under the impression that we are voting to deport every ethically non white person in Britain on the 23rd of June. I thought we were voting on whether we wanted to stay in the EU.... guess i didn't receive the memo. The hyperbole on both sides has been hilarious to be honest, Stronts last line of "wanton vandalism and stupidity unseen before on Earth" particularly delicious. 

 

It will be what it will be. I personally think the people will vote to stay. It'll probably end up like the Scottish referendum, a load of back and forth over nothing. Still fun while it lasted. 

 

I've been quite clear that the leave campaign has a racist/xenophobic edge to it, I've also been quite clear that not all leave supporters are racist/xenophobic. It's up to you to reconcile which side of that line you fall.

 

People seem to be under the misguided impression that a vote for leave is a vote to reclaim their country, in reality you'd delivering it into further hardship.

[Strontium]

The non-racist (and smart) response to migration is to campaign for the rights of migrant workers. Level the playing field at a decent level, so nobody gets undercut.

 

I am all in favour of migrant worker rights, and of course, when they work in this country they are entitled to one of the highest minimum wages in the EU.

 

Going to be funny seeing fruit withering on the trees when we leave the EU because migrant workers are banned from coming here.