Goals and assists from our wide positions?

[Code]

In our system with two attacking wide players, how many goals should be the minimum expected during a PL season from those two positions and how many assists should we expect?

 

I could have posted this in the "Goals where are they coming from" thread but there is a specific direction I want to go with this thread so its best suited with its own thread I think.

 

Sterling and Suso/Borini have started most PL games in these two positions this season with 17 out of 18 possible starts between them while Downing is recorded with the last one, so far its resulted in 1 goal and 0 assists from 273 of our front three.

 

I guess we can all agree its not good enough compared to anything really, but still some of the players in these positions have got a lot of credit for their performances so far this season even if they are not really delievering to the standards required at a club like ours.

 

Do we have a mismatch between the standard we demand from the team compared to those we demand from our players or what exactly is going on?

 

Yes we have young players, but should young players not be asked to deliever? If we set a lower standard for them just because they are young are they really ready?

 

And most importantly for this thread, do you think these players will be even close to deliever what you think is a minimum requirement from these positions when it comes to goals and assists?

[Jose Jones]

Without getting into the numbers game, you are off on assists because Sterling already has at least one and has created or been involved in numerous goal scoring chances.

So I would fuck off "assists" because as we know it is fairly shit stat.

 

It is also completely fair to have lower expectations of youngsters coming into the team. It takes time for players to develop, and you have to give them that time in the team in order to do this. A manager has to make a judgement on which players will have the quality in the long run. For example, Cristiano Ronaldo scored 4 league goals in his first season with the Mancs and 5 in his second, both at an older age than Sterling is now and in a much better team. Did playing him when he wasn't scoring that much cost the Mancs a bit for those seasons? I think certainly a bit. But the pay off for the following seasons due to his development made it well worth it.

 

However on a general point it's definitely a worry. We need goals from the wide areas (and also from central midfield). Giving time to young players is fine - but relying on two or three to deliver is going to cost us this season.

 

I reckon we need at least 20 between players from the wide areas. I can't see Suso scoring many, Downing won't get that many chances, but wouldn't score many anyway. I can see Borini improving a bit (but I'd rather he was just back-up striker). Sterling will get 5 or so. I think we'll be around 10 from the wide players all told. A genius wide player or a goal scoring striker so that Suarez can play in one of the wide positions is an absolute must.

[Code]

So basically we agree then JJ.

 

You menetion C.Ronaldo as a comparison to Sterling, well he scored 4 goals in his first season as a 18 year old in a new league, but more importantly he started only 15 games that season.

 

Sterling has started 8 out of 9 games for us so far this season and I doubt he will be able to meet the requirements needed for such a role in the team at all.

 

Not sure if it was on here or the MF I said it, but the truth is when Sterling gets the ball in a good position I think he will waste it and everything else is just a bonus.

 

The assists are not really important I just added them because these wide players will have to create loads of the chances we need to get goals from, Sterling has zero assists so far though.

[Jose Jones]

So basically we agree then JJ.

 

You menetion C.Ronaldo as a comparison to Sterling, well he scored 4 goals in his first season as a 18 year old in a new league, but more importantly he started only 15 games that season.

 

Sterling has started 8 out of 9 games for us so far this season and I doubt he will be able to meet the requirements needed for such a role in the team at all.

 

Not sure if it was on here or the MF I said it, but the truth is when Sterling gets the ball in a good position I think he will waste it and everything else is just a bonus.

 

The assists are not really important I just added them because these wide players will have to create loads of the chances we need to get goals from, Sterling has zero assists so far though.

 

I think Sterling has been a real threat in most games and also made decent decisions. Setting up Gerrard against Norwich didn't count as an "assist"? Was that because the shot took a deflection? Hence the stupidity of the "assist" stat. I'd rather just watch players and see if they are dangerous and creative. Sterling is both for me and will only get better.

[Code]

Personally I dont think Sterling is dangerous at all, he is potentially dangerous but when he gets close to goal he more often than not makes a poor decision or his effort at finishing is usually pretty pathetic.

 

Sterling might become a brilliant player, but right now he gets far too much playing time his actual ability taken into account.

 

Oh and the Gerrard "goal" has now been credited as an own goal so no.

[Jose Jones]

Personally I dont think Sterling is dangerous at all, he is potentially dangerous but when he gets close to goal he more often than not makes a poor decision or his effort at finishing is usually pretty pathetic.

 

Sterling might become a brilliant player, but right now he gets far too much playing time his actual ability taken into account.

 

Oh and the Gerrard "goal" has now been credited as an own goal so no.

 

Again, shows the nonsense of "assist" as a stat. It counts as an assist for a few weeks, then gets changed, then someone on a football forum goes "he hasn't had any assists", whereas his part in the goal and creating an opening hasn't changed. Also in that Norwich game he played a big part in Sahin's goal, picking up the ball, running at the defence and playing a good pass to Suarez. This doesn't count as an "assist" but was a vital part of the build up.

 

I'd be interested in examples of pathetic finishing or bad decisions though.

I think he more often than not plays a good ball, he's played a number of dangerous crosses - the one that created Suarez' goal against Sunderland for example (which again didn't "count" despite being the critical creative play in the goal).

 

Just against Reading he scored an excellent goal, he should probably have scored again in the second half, plus if Suarez had played a half decent ball in the first half instead of 3 yards behind him he might have scored then too. He also could have played the ball a little bit quicker for the chance Suarez put over the bar with his left peg - although that was still a decent-ish ball in and Luis should have done better.

He looks a threat a good handful of times every game for me.

 

Obviously his finishing and final ball need improvement, but that is always going to be the case with a young player. In an ideal world I would not want to be relying on Sterling so much, but considering our squad is what it is who would you play instead of him?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I didn't read all of your post, it got really tedious. I do agree that, if we're to be successful, we've got to score more goals from the wide areas. After all, they're two out of the three front attackers.

 

What we need, Code, is to give the manager some time to buy the players he wants for those positions. I think that's fair. Once he buys the players he wants for those positions, if things are still going wrong, then will be the time to ask questions.

[CWD82]

Sterling is still very raw. He's not a natural finisher but I think he'll learn how to score. He reminds me of Overmars a bit in how he plays. Overmars learned how to be more direct and get into the right positions. He'll end up as a 6 - 12 goal a season wideman if he fulfills his potential.

 

Comparing him to Ronaldo is very unfair.

 

Suso is clearly a central player. He doesn't make the runs of a wideman. He'll probably end up 5 - 10 goals a season if he fulfills his potential but that will be if he plays in midfield.

 

What it highlights is that we need more goals from the wide areas. For me we need a wide player who gets goals, probably someone about 24-26 years old who is outright first choice who is peaking who Sterling can learn off.

 

I'd then move Suarez wide and bring in another first choice striker. If you get two decent players you've got 50 goals potentially across the front three.

 

Borini is a funny one. He's got something but it's too early for judging. Probably see him as a back up striker/wideman at the minute. He may grow into something more in a few years

[Code]

What we need, Code, is to give the manager some time to buy the players he wants for those positions. I think that's fair. Once he buys the players he wants for those positions, if things are still going wrong, then will be the time to ask questions.

 

Serious question Numero, are you struggling with paranoia?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yeah, badly. That post, asking for time, fairness, and calm, is just full of paranoia.

[silverlining]

Sterling is 17, there isn't anyone who has taken the league by storm at that age, apart from maybe Owen and Fowler, and they're very different types of player.

 

Suso isn't a wide player.

[setreal]

Sterling and Suso are clearly past it. We should put them down and concentrate on the young ones.

[Code]

Yeah, badly.

 

Thanks for letting me know and it certainly explains why you thought this thread had anything to do with our manager when its got fuck all to do with him.

 

Its all about minimum requirements expected from our wide players compared to what we actually are getting from them.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Sterling is 17, there isn't anyone who has taken the league by storm at that age, apart from maybe Owen and Fowler, and they're very different types of player.

 

Suso isn't a wide player.

 

And they joined teams with established players ahead of them. Brining a 17 year old into the team with loads of superstars smacking the goals in is entirely different to brining a 17 year old into the starting line-up and relying on him for your goals and assists every week.

 

Sterling would be handled much differently at United. If he was quiet, you'd still have RvP, Rooney, Valencia, Scholes, et al, all contributing to the attacking game.

 

If we get Walcott and a finisher, we might suddenly remember that he's 17 and barely knows which side of the bed to piss in.

[silverlining]

And they joined teams with established players ahead of them. Brining a 17 year old into the team with loads of superstars smacking the goals in is entirely different to brining a 17 year old into the starting line-up and relying on him for your goals and assists every week.

 

Sterling would be handled much differently at United. If he was quiet, you'd still have RvP, Rooney, Valencia, Scholes, et al, all contributing to the attacking game.

 

If we get Walcott and a finisher, we might suddenly remember that he's 17 and barely knows which side of the bed to piss in.

 

Sterling (and Suso) wouldn't be getting a game at all at United, because Valencia, Young, RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Nani or whoever are all better than him.

 

I think what Codey is saying is that, if we had enough quality options, that Sterling wouldn't play as often as he has.

 

That's correct.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Thanks for letting me know and it certainly explains why you thought this thread had anything to do with our manager when its got fuck all to do with him.

 

Yeah, right.

 

Its all about minimum requirements expected from our wide players compared to what we actually are getting from them.

 

We're playing an 18 year old central attacking midfielder out on the right and has started 5 league games in his career, and a 17 year old who has 11 games in his career. It's not about minimum requirements, it's about tempering expectations until the manager can get in players who can be expected to score goals.

[Russ Atmosphere]

In a bigger and better squad Sterling would be getting eased in over a greater amount of games and would have played far fewer minutes, although how anyone could watch his contribution for us so far and not think he's 'dangerous' mystifies me.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Russ Atmosphere

[Code]

In a bigger and better squad Sterling would be getting eased in over a greater amount of games and would have played far fewer minutes, although how anyone could watch his contribution for us so far and not think he's 'dangerous' mystifies me.

 

While I think Sterling is a really exciting prospect, what stands out to me in his game is that he is just a boy, not his current abilities on this level.

 

And thats where I think we have a mismatch between peoples minimum expectations from players in Sterlings position, Sterlings contributions and the praise Sterling gets.

 

Remember Stewart Downing from 11/12 is not the benchmark here.

 

You also have the saying if you are good enough you are old enough and if you are good enough you are young enough, but I only think its fair to say that if you are deemed old (good) enough, then you also should be expected to contribute and for me Sterling is not contributing enough and I think he should be given less playing time than he gets at the moment, its not like we dont have alternatives who could contribute on the same level as he actually is when you dont factor in the 30+ points he starts with every game just because he is as young as he is.

[Russ Atmosphere]

Remember Stewart Downing from 11/12 is not the benchmark here.

 

Except it is the benchmark. We had to let decent wide forwards leave in the summer without getting replacements (for whatever reason). So Downing's contribution is the level to beat and Sterling is doing that.

[Code]

Except it is the benchmark. We had to let decent wide forwards leave in the summer without getting replacements (for whatever reason). So Downing's contribution is the level to beat and Sterling is doing that.

 

No he is not the benchmark at all.

 

So if Sterling performs better than Downing last year he is doing a superb job, which is the impression I get most people think he is doing, what kind of flawed logic is that?

 

What we get from Sterling at the moment is far from good enough from a regular starter in his position at Liverpool, its not his fault he is a regular starter though and its not his fault he starts every game and usually play the full 90 minutes either, in fact he has been subbed just twice in the 66th against Utd and 84th against Reading.

[Fugitive]

Fucking hell.

 

I wish someone would shove your stats up your arse. Are you on a one man mission to suck the enjoyment from football? Imagine watching the match with him, he'd be drawing graphs to show how many touches each player has had. Football stats rarely tell the whole story but you seem obsessed with them.

 

Serious question... do you have a form of Autism? You're like the resident Rain Man.

[silverlining]

Fucking hell.

 

I wish someone would shove your stats up your arse. Are you on a one man mission to suck the enjoyment from football? Imagine watching the match with him, he'd be drawing graphs to show how many touches each player has had. Football stats rarely tell the whole story but you seem obsessed with them.

 

Serious question... do you have a form of Autism? You're like the resident Rain Man.

 

I very much doubt he's like that at the match.

 

Although I wouldn't ever want to find out. Imagine if you were sat between Codey and xerxes and they were just like they are on here?

 

By halftime you'd have chewed through your wrists and tried to drown yourself by spraying arterial blood down your own throat.

[Original202]

Oh and the Gerrard "goal" has now been credited as an own goal so no.

 

By who? The Premier League has it down as a Gerrard goal. Sterling also got an assist against Sunderland for Suarez's goal.

 

Though the whole assists thing is bollocks. You can judge a player with your eyes as to how big a contribution they make, not what the numberbods determine.

[Russ Atmosphere]

No he is not the benchmark at all.

 

So if Sterling performs better than Downing last year he is doing a superb job, which is the impression I get most people think he is doing, what kind of flawed logic is that?

 

He's performing better than Downing from last year and this year, ergo he's in the first team. It doesn't matter whether you think he's superb in his position or not, or whether you think that everyone else thinks he's doing a superb job.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Russ Atmosphere

[Code]

Fucking hell.

 

I wish someone would shove your stats up your arse. Are you on a one man mission to suck the enjoyment from football? Imagine watching the match with him, he'd be drawing graphs to show how many touches each player has had. Football stats rarely tell the whole story but you seem obsessed with them.

 

Serious question... do you have a form of Autism? You're like the resident Rain Man.

 

Whats stats got to do with it?

 

You dont need any stats to see Sterling is far from the finished article, that his finishing is shite and that more often than not he makes the wrong decisons when he is closing in on goal.

 

Still he is hailed as some genius by large parts of our fanbase so I wonder what exactly is it people expect from a regular stareter at Liverpool, it cant be much.

 

Is he doing a good job just because he is able to put one foot ahead of the other one when running?