John Barnes Article in Times

[VladimirIlyich]

 

I stopped going to England games in the 80's which had become little more than a paltform for the prejudiced, xenophobic and dispossesed, only recently have i returned ( and it is better).

 

You are right to point out the FA's spineless response to England hooliganism and bigotry right up to the turn of this century.

 

Barnes does speak eloquently about racism, and from first hand experience. I do think however that it is important that as Liverpudlians we show some humility on the race issue. Liverpool in the eighties, was institutionally racist, Everton resisted signing black players for a long time, and our handling of the race v suarez balance has been poor.

 

There is still a reluctance generally to discuss racism in the game generally. Retired players who suffered abuse and now garner sympathy are not enough, nor are modern multi-millionaires who are happy to use it as a publicity platform.

 

What is, and is not, acceptable as banter needs airing without fear or favour. Luis revelaed that he calls Glen negro in training, as do other Man U players of Hernandez, is that ok? If Alan Hansen were to address either as negro on a match of the day interview would that be acceptable?

 

Why have proportionately so few black managers and coaches come through?

 

Too many are happy to swear allegiance to the anti-racism cause- and then dive for cover.

 

The debate is more nuanced than some would imagine, and being black alone does not make for a good advocate of the matter - in my view Garth Crooks has set back the cause of black media pundits by being hopeless, but the likes of John barnes, Dion Dublin and jason Roberts should be encouraged to debate this.

 

They call the players Neg-ro because its spanish culture to do so and until this smear campaign most footballers were happy to be tolerant to other nationalities and cultures,even Evra.

 

Great statement by Diego Lugano saying England is still colonial and embarrassed by racial debate.

[xerxes]

They call the players Neg-ro because its spanish culture to do so and until this smear campaign most footballers were happy to be tolerant to other nationalities and cultures,even Evra.

 

Great statement by Diego Lugano saying England is still colonial and embarrassed by racial debate.

 

Extreme caution should be exercised on the nuances of the use of negro.In South America and Spain black people are subject to racism, and the term can be as abusive, or literal, as it is here. I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.

 

I do agree that the debate on race should be more open, and the lynch mob on Hansen for using the word coloured was embarrassing.

 

Luis', and our, mistake, was that if you are in a foreign country, and cause unintended offence, the first thing you do is offer a profuse apology.

Sadly ego ,and the Manc v Scouse bile,quickly overwhelmed what should have been a minor incident.

[BCM]

Extreme caution should be exercised on the nuances of the use of negro.In South America and Spain black people are subject to racism, and the term can be as abusive, or literal, as it is here. I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.

 

I do agree that the debate on race should be more open, and the lynch mob on Hansen for using the word coloured was embarrassing.

 

Luis', and our, mistake, was that if you are in a foreign country, and cause unintended offence, the first thing you do is offer a profuse apology.

Sadly ego ,and the Manc v Scouse bile,quickly overwhelmed what should have been a minor incident.

 

Completely disagree.

This is about one Sportsman going out of his way to stain the character of another. What Evra said about Luis family was much worse than what Luis said.

 

The fact that he used the word Negro, which we all know is acceptable in his country and the fact as Luis said that it is a word used by his S America counterparts at United, tells me that Evra went out deliberately to cause problems. I bet Forlan uttered it while he was there as well.

 

People also have very short memories in this country as well, it was'nt that long ago, you were'nt allowed to use the term Black, and coloured was a term used by many.

Christ at one point it was :- Chalkboard instead of Blackboard, You could'nt say Baa Baa Black sheep.

 

One last thing i really hope Terry gets this much shit when his court case is done.

[Coro]

Extreme caution should be exercised on the nuances of the use of negro.In South America and Spain black people are subject to racism, and the term can be as abusive, or literal, as it is here. I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.

 

*Uruguayan

 

Who would you take race relation lessons from? John Barnes? He says there's no such thing as race.

 

Maybe a lesson in Spanish before you start talking about the use of words, in Spanish?

 

How do you apologise to someone for something you didn't say? 'Nigger'

[TheHowieLama]

Extreme caution should be exercised on the nuances of the use of negro.In South America and Spain black people are subject to racism, and the term can be as abusive, or literal, as it is here. I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.

 

I do agree that the debate on race should be more open, and the lynch mob on Hansen for using the word coloured was embarrassing.

 

Luis', and our, mistake, was that if you are in a foreign country, and cause unintended offence, the first thing you do is offer a profuse apology.

Sadly ego ,and the Manc v Scouse bile,quickly overwhelmed what should have been a minor incident.

 

I've noticed a conspicuous absence of posts from you in the Uruguayan's thread.

It would be interesting to hear the response when you tell him how they feel about racism and how blacks are treated there. You could just cut and paste the same two paragraph blurb you have been recycling for the last few months.

Just an idea.

[xerxes]

I've noticed a conspicuous absence of posts from you in the Uruguayan's thread.It would be interesting to hear the response when you tell him how they feel about racism and how blacks are treated there. You could just cut and paste the same two paragraph blurb you have been recycling for the last few months.Just an idea.

 

You have identified the point- that is good enough for me.

 

Race and racism rarely comes in convenient packages.

[xerxes]

*Uruguayan

 

Who would you take race relation lessons from? John Barnes? He says there's no such thing as race.

 

Maybe a lesson in Spanish before you start talking about the use of words, in Spanish?

 

How do you apologise to someone for something you didn't say? 'Nigger'

On the first point- no-one.

On the second there is no dispute regarding the ambiguity of the word in question.

On the third, Luis confirmed what he said in writing.

 

Some really are getting themselves tangled up in knots over this.

[xerxes]

Completely disagree.

This is about one Sportsman going out of his way to stain the character of another. What Evra said about Luis family was much worse than what Luis said.

 

The fact that he used the word Negro, which we all know is acceptable in his country and the fact as Luis said that it is a word used by his S America counterparts at United, tells me that Evra went out deliberately to cause problems. I bet Forlan uttered it while he was there as well.

 

People also have very short memories in this country as well, it was'nt that long ago, you were'nt allowed to use the term Black, and coloured was a term used by many.

Christ at one point it was :- Chalkboard instead of Blackboard, You could'nt say Baa Baa Black sheep.

 

One last thing i really hope Terry gets this much shit when his court case is done.

 

Hold on there.

 

The debacle of how the situation was allowed to escalate has been well recorded, how Luis was let down well documented.

 

The word negro is not acceptable in Spanish, it is ambiguous, it may be used in a benign, or offensive manner.

 

My point was that the defence to the charge was that the word was used inoffensively- if it had been backed up immediately by an apology for any unintentional offence caused, a lot of grief would have been saved. That in no way impacts on the other stuff.

 

I think we can be confident that Terry will face consequences which will put Luis punishment n the shade.

 

I could not agree with you more on the lunacy of extreme interpretations of language deemed racist.

[TheHowieLama]

 

I think we can be confident that Terry will face consequences which will put Luis punishment n the shade.

 

 

What makes you think that? Seriously? Has there ever been a similar case in civil court that has been handled that way?

[s(k)aturation]

Hold on there.

 

The debacle of how the situation was allowed to escalate has been well recorded, how Luis was let down well documented.

 

The word negro is not acceptable in Spanish, it is ambiguous, it may be used in a benign, or offensive manner.

 

 

Xerxes, I think someone as pernickety as you will allow me to pull you up on a fairly glaring factual point of order.

 

Just because something is ambiguous does NOT make it unacceptable. Context and intent is what makes something acceptable or not.

 

If you're going to high-horse it, please refrain from making blanket, fabricated, just-plain-wrong laws of language.

 

Especially, I would've thought, someone else's.

[TheHowieLama]

 

If you're going to high-horse it, please refrain from making blanket, fabricated, just-plain-wrong laws of language.

 

Especially, I would've thought, someone else's.

 

or , as suggested, could just read the other thread:

 

"Here in Uruguay we can tell "negro" to the black ones because the word "negro" and belonging the black race isn't considered offensive. You can be black as you can be white as you can be yellow as you can be whatever you are. I've got the impression that in England you can't tell "negro" to the black ones because of a kind of prejudice that from my point of view it can be perfectly seen as a racism itself.

 

Things are what they are. If you're black there's no reason for not calling you "black". To us it's totally normal."

[s(k)aturation]

or , as suggested, could just read the other thread:

 

"Here in Uruguay we can tell "negro" to the black ones because the word "negro" and belonging the black race isn't considered offensive. You can be black as you can be white as you can be yellow as you can be whatever you are. I've got the impression that in England you can't tell "negro" to the black ones because of a kind of prejudice that from my point of view it can be perfectly seen as a racism itself.

 

Things are what they are. If you're black there's no reason for not calling you "black". To us it's totally normal."

 

Of course.

I was more pulling him up on the linguistic lunacy of suggesting ambiguity equals unacceptability.

[TheHowieLama]

linguistic lunacy .

 

agreed, absolutely asinine assumption

[s(k)aturation]

agreed, absolutely asinine assumption

 

Very nice assonance there.

[TheHowieLama]

Very nice assonance there.

 

heh - too fast for me, I am not completely alliterate, but I do read a little slow

[Coro]

On the first point- no-one.

On the second there is no dispute regarding the ambiguity of the word in question.

On the third, Luis confirmed what he said in writing.

 

Some really are getting themselves tangled up in knots over this.

 

'I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.' - says Xerxes the pretzel.

 

Bit narrow minded in itself that, isn't it.

 

OK, how's about a lesson in Spanish from a Uruguayan?

 

Suarez was originally accused of saying the word 'nigger', how do you go about or at what point do you apologise for that?

 

Any excuse to mypost one of my faves -

 

[YOUTUBE]Jn3iybtxNZw[/YOUTUBE]

[Nunavut Patrick]

No need for someone talking sense.

 

That shite doesn't sell papers.

[Zippy]

Extreme caution should be exercised on the nuances of the use of negro.In South America and Spain black people are subject to racism, and the term can be as abusive, or literal, as it is here. I'm certainly not taking race relations lessons from a Uraguayan.

 

I do agree that the debate on race should be more open, and the lynch mob on Hansen for using the word coloured was embarrassing.

 

Luis', and our, mistake, was that if you are in a foreign country, and cause unintended offence, the first thing you do is offer a profuse apology.Sadly ego ,and the Manc v Scouse bile,quickly overwhelmed what should have been a minor incident.

 

I agree that throughout we have handled things really poorly however I disagree with this. When Evra said he had been called n****r 10 times that left no room whatsoever for a profuse apology for unintended offence.

 

If Evra had said Suarez had said "por que negro" and that he was offended by that then yes Suarez could have said sorry for unintended offence but the allegation meant that was no longer an option.

[VladimirIlyich]

Luis only admitted to saying the word 'negg-ro' once in writing,thats all and not 'negro de mierda' as the word 'nigger' is used in Uruguayan Spanish.

 

I would suggest you debate with the Uruguayan gentleman on Uruguayan culture and language rather than the word of 3 stupid middle aged white Englishmen.

[goatboy59]

I agree that throughout we have handled things really poorly however I disagree with this. When Evra said he had been called n****r 10 times that left no room whatsoever for a profuse apology for unintended offence.

 

 

Exactly.

 

And the torrent of fictitious shite in the final report, which 'the reliable witness' changed it to.

[Guest The Chimp]

If people were as vehemently opposed to racism as they claim to be, then surely they'd be all over any individual who risks setting the same course back through falsely accusing someone.

[gkmacca]

Proof of how carefully Digger is listened to: Richard Bevan was just on SSN saying he thought Suarez should have been sent on a 're-education' course 'with somebody like John Barnes'. Laughable.

[fowler9]

I just want to keep this point out there in case people forget about it.

The independent language "experts" that the FA used for their stitch up agreed in the report that "If Luis Suarez is telling the truth the phrase he used would not be considered racist".

.

 

I never saw this but am glad you posted it as it gives me an additional response for when mongs come back with "but he admitted it" when he is defended as they don't seem to understand words mean different things in other cultures

[Bobby Hundreds]

Is Ollie holt the hypocritcial cunt really Emily bishop from coronation streets son.

[aws]

I just want to keep this point out there in case people forget about it.

The independent language "experts" that the FA used for their stitch up agreed in the report that "If Luis Suarez is telling the truth the phrase he used would not be considered racist".

So seeing as I believe Luis in his version of events over the quite ludicrous claims of Evra with his blackie' date=' blackie, blackie claim, I believe a serious miscarriage of justice has occurred here and I know I will never be satisfied untill the truth is told either by a manc player with a conscience or someone from our own club decides to get it all out there.[/quote']

 

The only think which could clear Suarez is a death-bed confession from Evra. Any volunteers?