Tory Country

[cochcaer]

Personally think the Libs are full of crap and don't swallow this noble doing it for 'the good of the country' line. The big concession they wanted and wouldn't budge on wasn't something to protect services or the poor... it was AV. Pure self-interest and nothing to do with (yawn) the financial mess left by Labour.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't recall ever saying I agree with "pretty much everything". I definitely said I agree to some extent with most of what it's done, but that still leaves plenty of room for stuff I don't agree with. I wouldn't say any policy I believed in clashed with the natural beliefs of the party.

 

I asked you why you weren't dissenting, and you replied that it was because you agreed with most of what they're doing and questioned dissenting for the sake of it. That's what I mean by 'pretty much' everything. You've just hushed up about the bits you didn't. Hence the tribalism.

 

You can't really say that you've been a dissenter, certainly not on here. You've gone out of your way to discredit those attacking your party. It's the same with Labour tribalists, they don't like to slam their own party either. There's benefits of that, but there's negatives too.

[Strontium]

I've dissented on lots of things, the reason it never looks like dissent is because other people here go so much further than I do, and I have to explain to them that while it's bad (eg tuition fees), it's really not as bad as they're claiming. I'm forced into defending something I don't really agree with against hyperbolic and ludicrous exaggeration, because letting such hyperbolic nonsense stand unchallenged is anathema to me.

[L19red]

I'm pissed off at the ingrates who voted my dad out after 19 years of peerless service, although admittedly, not as pissed off as they're going to be when they need a streetlight fixed or rubbish cleared. On the other hand, I will enjoy actually getting to spend some time with my parents.

 

 

It should be pretty clear that the reason your arl fella lost out is nothing to do with his own performance as a councillor.

I'd speculate that had you not entered coallition then Liverpool City Council may very well have returned to Lib-Dem control.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I've dissented on lots of things, the reason it never looks like dissent is because other people here go so much further than I do, and I have to explain to them that while it's bad (eg tuition fees), it's really not as bad as they're claiming. I'm forced into defending something I don't really agree with against hyperbolic and ludicrous exaggeration, because letting such hyperbolic nonsense stand unchallenged is anathema to me.

 

Well, what you consider to be hyperbolic nonsense - when it's in the form of an attack on your party - is normally just light hearted banter. You're not shy of a bit of hyperbole and nonsense yourself, especially in the defence of your party. Actually, I think possibly only ever in defence of your party.

[Anny Road]

I suspect that the reason the libs lost and the snp won is because SD is a revenge negger.

 

The end of the UK is your fault SD you over sensitive revenge negging political extremist cunt.

[L19red]

I suspect that the reason the libs lost and the snp won is because SD is a revenge negger.

 

The end of the UK is your fault SD you over sensitive revenge negging political extremist cunt.

 

Arf!

[Strontium]

It should be pretty clear that the reason your arl fella lost out is nothing to do with his own performance as a councillor.

 

 

I'm damn certain of it. I spoke to some voters yesterday. More than one told me what a great councillor he was, how he always kept them informed, how he was always there if they needed things doing and how they'd heard fuck all from the Labour candidate until a few months ago - but they'd still decided to switch to Labour this time. How can anyone compete against such mountainous levels of stupid?

 

I'd speculate that had you not entered coallition then Liverpool City Council may very well have returned to Lib-Dem control.

 

 

Not a chance of that. Quite apart from anything else, the Labour Party is so much better funded than we are. Unlike the two bigger parties, we don't have any vested interests to tap for cash.

 

Well, what you consider to be hyperbolic nonsense - when it's in the form of an attack on your party - is normally just light hearted banter.

 

 

Very little of it is light hearted. So much of it is nasty and downright malicious. I hesitate to use the word that my girlfriend used earlier - "bullying" - but if the cap fits...

[WaltonRed]

SD tell your dad his hat is very fetching

[Strontium]

More like hats. He has loads of them. I don't really get it, but at least he took the sodding thing off for the 6 o'clock news.

[dennis tooth]

Where did I say that they did?

 

Not saying you endorsed it just pointing that out.

[dennis tooth]

I'm pissed off at the ingrates who voted my dad out after 19 years of peerless service, although admittedly, not as pissed off as they're going to be when they need a streetlight fixed or rubbish cleared. On the other hand, I will enjoy actually getting to spend some time with my parents.

 

I'm not hurting though, why would I be? Humiliated, what? I don't recognise any of these emotions. Couple of days of reflection, then back to running the country for the next 4 years.

 

It's funny, I almost wish we were doing half the things we're being accused of doing. Maybe we should scrap the £9,000 tuition cap and give people what they actually voted for last night.

 

Haha, ingrates are they? Yeah society is going to fall apart now 19 years, you talk about safe seats and your hero lost him all his support. Can't imagine what that must be like but couldn't find someone more deserving, you've been waving Nicks flag high and clear on here and like all your stuff is another falsehood that's bitten you on the arse.

[dennis tooth]

Deluded arrogance comes to mind.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

 

Very little of it is light hearted. So much of it is nasty and downright malicious. I hesitate to use the word that my girlfriend used earlier - "bullying" - but if the cap fits...

 

People are angry, Dog. When you defend the indefensible, people tend to get angry at you, too. As for bullying, it might have more credibility if you weren't going 'round calling people 'fucking idiots' or calling other parties 'the war and torture' party, or calling students all sorts of names.

 

You're very eager to get stuck into other parties, and other people, but when it's you in the dock, so to speak, you seem to dislike it.

[Cardie]

 

Very little of it is light hearted. So much of it is nasty and downright malicious. I hesitate to use the word that my girlfriend used earlier - "bullying" - but if the cap fits...

 

Presumably you also show her the comments you make to people in private (you know for a bit of balance).

 

Calling people retards or telling them to "fuck off and die" for having the nerve to make comments about politicians in general (not even singling anyone out so mass bullying I guess).

 

God knows what they'd get if they started talking about individuals, presumably following a tearful pep talk from mrs dog you'd wreaking yellow revenge on those fucking commoners who just happen to be your voters.

[L19red]

I'm damn certain of it. I spoke to some voters yesterday. More than one told me what a great councillor he was, how he always kept them informed, how he was always there if they needed things doing and how they'd heard fuck all from the Labour candidate until a few months ago - but they'd still decided to switch to Labour this time. How can anyone compete against such mountainous levels of stupid?

 

.

 

I used to live in greenbank and moved to mossley hill a few years ago and its certainly true historically that the libdems in those areas engaged more with the community than other parties. I think thats changed in the last couple of years rather than the last few months but you've no doubt been victims of westminster politics this time around.

[WaltonRed]

PLANETPMC: David Cameron: a lucky man, a blessed career and now a mandate to wreak havoc on the country

[King Emlyn]

Gotta feel for the dog; say what you like but he's very passionate about his politics, he must be feeling disillusioned at the minute.

[Cardie]

Gotta feel for the dog; say what you like but he's very passionate about his politics, he must be feeling disillusioned at the minute.

 

If he and the party he supports felt disillusioned last may and put up a fight on issues instead of rolling over to have their belly tickled this wouldn't have happened.

 

People were predicting this all year No good them pretending to be shocked after the event.

[Anny Road]

This is just a shot across the bow. Wait till the general election. I think lib dem MP's will be shitting themselves today and will demand a change before they all get booted out.

[Tyler Durden]

I can't believe someone on here who calls the electorate idiots has the cheek to talk about bullying. The people wanted to send a message to the government and the only way they can do it is at the polls, how the fuck can you have the cheek to have a go at them for it?

What is the saying about the voters never being wrong? Maybe instead of calling people using their only method of protest against the current government idiots you and your party should listen a bit more rather then closing your eyes and humming.

You carry on SD like people are being brainwashed by the media when most of the media is in the Consevatives pocket churning out shite about us soon being bankrupt unless we privatise all public services, sorry make 'efficiency cuts'.

 

At some point it might be an idea to listen a bit more rather then deny the fact your party is being used, I doubt you will though because the one thing you held the country to ransom over, voting reform, has just been killed. Conservatives can do whatever they like now knowing you are now lame 'in power'.

[Albertini]

As someone who spends more time out of the UK than it and not registered to vote in the UK anymore I can see the merits of what all three parties have to say, without the tribal partisanship that runs through most of the discussion on here along the lines of labour good all tories (and now lib dems) bad.

 

In my opinion the last labour government potentially could have transformed this country on the back of the excellent economy it inherited and the mood of the country back in 1997 when conservatism was on its knees.

 

It spectacularly failed to do so for many reasons but from reading a few accounts of the party at that time (the Andrew Rawnsley books and Tom Bower’s dissection of Gordon Brown, just waiting for my copy of David Craig’s book Squandered) the biggest failing of the labour party to make things tangibly better was as a result of the huge dysfunctionality of the party leaders who were riven with angst, rivalry, vendettas and grudges against each other at the expense of the betterment of the country.

 

Money was spectacularly wasted on ill-conceived schemes and ideas (PFI being the biggest one) but other monumentally bad things such as defence procurement and IT systems (the NHS & ID cards being classic examples). In many areas it seems to me that money spent from 1997 was spent without proper regard for where it was going and how it was going to make a difference nor were the government able to manage the bureaucracy of the state to deliver better services and waste, failure and overspend were rewarded in many cases with large pay offs and pensions for those responsible.

 

This is not an anti labour rant as many of the issues of the Labour government came from the Tories. What was disappointing was that Labour ran with the policies that even the Tories were reluctant to push pre 1997.

 

In relation to the recession clearly a worldwide recession was not something we can blame the government for. What we can say is that Labour failed to build a broad economy which could have withstood the effects of a recession created by the banking sector. We can blame labour for allowing the economy to be built on debt, borrowing and house prices and for their tripartite system clearly failing to monitor and prevent the excesses of the banking system.

 

As of March 27th 2011 Britain’s debt EXCLUDING bank bailouts was £875.8 billion, and forecast to rise to £1.2 trillion by the end of the year. If all financial sector liabilities and guarantees are taken into account the total is £2.5 trillion (£2,500 billion). These are figures from the Office of National statistics. So whilst the bankers are blamed and rightly so let’s be clear Britain’s finances were and are in a mess and were not geared up to weather any kind of recession, however it started. The fact that it was caused by the one sector our economy was built on has made the impact of it far worse.

 

There seems to be no set in stone right or wrong way in how to deal with the problem. Obviously the Tories are cutting faster (but not that much father) than Labour would have done. Others are saying it should be staggered, as the Americans have done but they now seem to be moving away from that model as their deficit soars. My opinion is that the scale of the problem required tackling right away. The country is paying £42 billion per year in interest payments alone which equates to £2100 for every household in Britain. You can say same old cruel Tories but clearly there is an argument for cuts given the cost to every family for borrowing so much money. The only indicator of which way of tackling debt and deficit is the right way will be the history of time.

 

In relation to immigration it is not racist to look at and question the validity of the massive increase in migration which occurred under labour and to ask if this policy of letting so many people into the country has helped or hindered the country. Under Labour immigration was 5.2 million coming in with 2 million foreigners leaving and 1 million british citizens emigrating. That means 2.2 million people more are now in this country than there were. In 2010 net migration increased to 226,000 as the number of British citizens emigrating fell. Clearly these kinds of increases puts a huge strain on all public services.

 

In specific regards to the economic benefit let me quote Migration watch:

Clearly some migrants bring economic benefit to the UK but, taken as a whole, what they add to production is counter balanced by their addition to the population. The only major inquiry ever conducted in the UK was carried out by the Select Committee on Economic Affairs of the House of Lords in 2007/08. In April 2008 they reported that "We have found no evidence for the argument, made by the government, business and many others, that net immigration - immigration minus emigration - generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population." As regards the contribution of migrants to the Exchequer, they concluded that "The overall fiscal impact of immigration is likely to be small, though this masks significant variations across different immigrant groups." See House of Lords - Economic Affairs - First Report

 

For any government to say “ anyone who wants to live here, you can” is clearly being irresponsible as you cannot burden a country, its citizens and its infra-structure with more and more people coming in and being reliant on it.

 

 

Sorry to go on a bit, I just read the thread and wanted to contribute a bit of a non partisan take on things.

[dennis tooth]

£875.8 billion

 

Cost of Trident: US$260 billion

[Albertini]

Cost of Trident: US$260 billion

 

May I ask what this figure relates to? Money spent so far or money for the proposed replacement?

[dennis tooth]

May I ask what this figure relates to? Money spent so far or money for the proposed replacement?

 

Thats total cost, it will rise, it includes the air craft carriers and everything but the Tories have signed up to be ripped off by the US and it will be more than that figure.