Suarez: Sell or Keep?

[ngogswilly]

The only way selling him would be a positive now would be if we used the money to buy some real quality players.

 

Easier said than done in our current position.

[Stickman]

Not sure where I stand on the whole Suarez issue now ut's been going on too long and it's getting very tedious but I guess par for the course the way the club is run.

One think I do think is that I fail to see how any red can ever truly back him now...the guy is a grotesque individual, if you worked with him and you were on strike the shit would be the first through the picket line.

No player in my memory has ever had the kind of backing that he has had from the fans and yet he really doesn't give two fucks about anyone bar himself, and yes a lot of modern footballers are in a way like that but I can't think of anyone like him.....

The constant lies the changing of stories why he wants to go....he's fucking horrible......feel such a dick getting into arguments backing him.

 

Not arsed one way or another if he goes or stays....but I know one thing he won't get my support when I go the game.

Thing is give it a year or two and Arsenal are still not a major force then this will start all over again.

[Major Tom]

For the past 12-18 months, Luis Suarez has to my mind been one of the top 5 players in the world. So, unless we are replacing him with somebody in the top 3, then, if sold, and for however much for, we will be replacing him with a player that is not as good as he is. There can't be much doubt about that.

 

The money can, however, be used to strengthen the team. Upgrading your weaker players has I think been shown to have a bigger impact on team performance than more marginal improvements at the top end. If the money from Suarez can be used to increase quality at the lower end, then the loss of quality in the like for like comparison between Suarez and any direct replacement should not matter. We would still be a stronger team.

 

The problem for the club is the relatively small window available to upgrade on weaker players and the difficulty of attracting 2-3 players of that caliber to the club when we have no CL football to offer. This, for me, is the main issue. If we could guarantee being able to use the money to get 2-3 signings to substantially upgrade on the weaker areas of the team, then I think that taking 50m+ for Suarez would be worth doing.

 

If there is any doubt that we can do this – and there surely must be - then we are better off holding on to him for another season and then hoping that we are in a position to attract those kinds of players next summer as a result of CL qualification.

 

I’m guessing that this is the kind of ‘deal’ that we may be trying to cut with Suarez right now: e.g. Luis, you owe this club and its supporters a shot at CL football and, if we don’t get it, you can leave next summer and we won't be quite so worried about where you go and how much we get for you, within reason.

 

The player, however, will doubtless be wondering: what if he gets injured, or gets himself another ban, or just has a lousy season? All of which are possible, although the first two more likely than the latter. And these doubts must surely affect all players. What if nobody wants me in 12 months time?

 

He may then lose any chance he has of playing CL football in his prime (from his perspective). If he could guarantee that a host of high achieving CL clubs would be swarming around him this time next year, then the ‘1 more season’ proposal would likely have greater appeal. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees like this in football. The offers exist only in the here and now. This is his dilemma and I think it is why he wants to be allowed to at least speak with CL clubs that show an interest in him - it’s a matter of keeping his options open whilst he weighs all of this up. Far from straightforward

 

It’s a shame he wasn’t a little more up front about his desire for CL football over the last few months, rather than the BS excuses about being hassled when he goes shopping etc, but alas, to err is human etc.

 

A very good post.

[Lario]

This could quite conceivably end up in court which raises two questions for me:

 

a) Why is Suarez forcing this through when he'll be aware the current bid is below his market value? and;

 

b) Why is the clause so ambiguous in the first place and who the fuck inserted it?

 

All very frustrating.

 

a) He's not forcing it through yet. When he hands in a transfer request and/or goes on strike, then he's forcing the issue.

 

b) I don't think the clause is ambiguous. I think the agent has picked it up wrong. There's no way the club would be rejecting abid that they legally had to accept. They're allowing him to talk to Arsenal because they bid over £40m ie. met the clause. You can blame Guardiola for all the misinformation regarding the clause.

 

Suarez is a massive cunt if he goes to talk to Arsenal though. So much for "I'm a Liverpool fan", "I always play as Liverpool when playing FIFA", etc.

 

Edit: At the same time, maybe this is payback to the club for not fighting his corner during the Evra thing?

[Major Tom]

a) He's not forcing it through yet. When he hands in a transfer request and/or goes on strike, then he's forcing the issue.

 

b) I don't think the clause is ambiguous. I think the agent has picked it up wrong. There's no way the club would be rejecting abid that they legally had to accept. They're allowing him to talk to Arsenal because they bid over £40m ie. met the clause. You can blame Guardiola for all the misinformation regarding the clause.

 

Suarez is a massive cunt if he goes to talk to Arsenal though. So much for "I'm a Liverpool fan", "I always play as Liverpool when playing FIFA", etc.

 

My questions were on the proviso that this saga ended up in court, Lario. As you say, Suarez hasn't forced the issue at this point and we still don't know if the clause is ambiguous or not.

 

Just hope it gets dealt with quickly. Scrambling round for players in late August is a nightmare.

[Mathewbet1]

I hope we don't sell To Arsenal, but if we do we should try to get on of their players as part of the deal. Walcott or Ramsey.

[Guest San Don]

For the past 12-18 months, Luis Suarez has to my mind been one of the top 5 players in the world. So, unless we are replacing him with somebody in the top 3, then, if sold, and for however much for, we will be replacing him with a player that is not as good as he is. There can't be much doubt about that.

 

The money can, however, be used to strengthen the team. Upgrading your weaker players has I think been shown to have a bigger impact on team performance than more marginal improvements at the top end. If the money from Suarez can be used to increase quality at the lower end, then the loss of quality in the like for like comparison between Suarez and any direct replacement should not matter. We would still be a stronger team.

 

The problem for the club is the relatively small window available to upgrade on weaker players and the difficulty of attracting 2-3 players of that caliber to the club when we have no CL football to offer. This, for me, is the main issue. If we could guarantee being able to use the money to get 2-3 signings to substantially upgrade on the weaker areas of the team, then I think that taking 50m+ for Suarez would be worth doing.

 

If there is any doubt that we can do this – and there surely must be - then we are better off holding on to him for another season and then hoping that we are in a position to attract those kinds of players next summer as a result of CL qualification.

 

I’m guessing that this is the kind of ‘deal’ that we may be trying to cut with Suarez right now: e.g. Luis, you owe this club and its supporters a shot at CL football and, if we don’t get it, you can leave next summer and we won't be quite so worried about where you go and how much we get for you, within reason.

 

The player, however, will doubtless be wondering: what if he gets injured, or gets himself another ban, or just has a lousy season? All of which are possible, although the first two more likely than the latter. And these doubts must surely affect all players. What if nobody wants me in 12 months time?

 

He may then lose any chance he has of playing CL football in his prime (from his perspective). If he could guarantee that a host of high achieving CL clubs would be swarming around him this time next year, then the ‘1 more season’ proposal would likely have greater appeal. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees like this in football. The offers exist only in the here and now. This is his dilemma and I think it is why he wants to be allowed to at least speak with CL clubs that show an interest in him - it’s a matter of keeping his options open whilst he weighs all of this up. Far from straightforward

 

It’s a shame he wasn’t a little more up front about his desire for CL football over the last few months, rather than the BS excuses about being hassled when he goes shopping etc, but alas, to err is human etc.

 

The club better fucking not be saying to him stay one more season and if we dont qualify for the CL, we'll sanction a move for you! No fucking way should we even be thinking that. That just encourages players set a demand on the club and agitate for a move a season before they actually do.

[The Great Jacko]

Ramsey? Are you kidding - why? Nowhere near the same since his injury, I'd have Henderson over him 100% of the time. If he wasn't at Arsenal he'd be a very average player at a very average club maybe worth £5-6m.

 

Re Suarez and Arsenal I've never been more wrong about something in football since I was convinced that Thomas Brolin would tear the league up. I thought the Arse bid was for show and that Suarez wouldn't dream of going there anyway.

[Major Tom]

The club better fucking not be saying to him stay one more season and if we dont qualify for the CL, we'll sanction a move for you! No fucking way should we even be thinking that. That just encourages players set a demand on the club and agitate for a move a season before they actually do.

 

According to some reports, the only reason Suarez stayed last summer was because of this purported clause. Whatever the fuck is in it.

 

As it is, the guy wants to leave. If not this summer, well definitely Jan or next summer. If we can get him to stay by saying he can leave next year if we don't make the CL spots, well we'd be naive not to.

[Guest San Don]

a) He's not forcing it through yet. When he hands in a transfer request and/or goes on strike, then he's forcing the issue.

 

Hmmm, as with a lot of things, it depends on your interpretation of 'forcing' it through yet. He's forcing it imo just by saying he wants to talk to the club who've activated the clause.

 

He was saying he wanted out of England because of media intrusion. Does he think London is not within England? Does he think the London media is going to be different? They are the same people who've hammered him during his time here.

 

Nah, its a question of degrees but he's forcing it right now, make no mistake.

 

b) I don't think the clause is ambiguous. I think the agent has picked it up wrong. There's no way the club would be rejecting abid that they legally had to accept. They're allowing him to talk to Arsenal because they bid over £40m ie. met the clause. You can blame Guardiola for all the misinformation regarding the clause.

 

I dont think the clause is ambiguous either. Clearly we dont know the detail but the club's position is rock solid and they havent budged from it. After previous gaffes, Im sure they club would have used top legal counsel to make sure the clause when drafted means how they wanted it.

 

Suarez is a massive cunt if he goes to talk to Arsenal though. So much for "I'm a Liverpool fan", "I always play as Liverpool when playing FIFA", etc.

 

It seems if a new player says the right things, many people believe it unquestionably. Not saying I didnt believe him when he was saying that stuff, just that words are cheap.

 

Edit: At the same time, maybe this is payback to the club for not fighting his corner during the Evra thing?

 

The club did fight his corner. Just not very successfully. He wouldnt have signed the new contract if he thought that, surely.

[Guest San Don]

According to some reports, the only reason Suarez stayed last summer was because of this purported clause. Whatever the fuck is in it.

 

I dont recollect any reports saying he wanted to leave last summer. I think that's being selectively put out there now by some people for whatever reason.

 

As it is, the guy wants to leave. If not this summer, well definitely Jan or next summer. If we can get him to stay by saying he can leave next year if we don't make the CL spots, well we'd be naive not to.

 

Sorry tom we'll have to disagree. You may as well say just stick any old 'escape' clause in a contract if you go down this 'we'll let you go next year' shite' Its just shite and as I said, will just result in players agitating for a move 12 months earlier knwoing the club will say, ok, next year if we dont.........

 

Mascherano spouted that shite and maybe the club did agree or not but, look how that ended up, very messy.

 

No, we'd be naive to acceed to any player by saying give us 12 more months then we'll let you go.

[diamondjoe]

What i'd like to know is who is in his ear saying Arsenal. Which Arsenal players are whispering sweet nothings in his lughole? He might as well join Aston fucking Villa as join Arsenal!

Bizarre the whole thing.

[Major Tom]

No, we'd be naive to acceed to any player by saying give us 12 more months then we'll let you go.

 

Well, he's going anyway. So, from our view it's much, much, much (much) better he stays this season. And if a clause like that keeps him happy, all good. We then go on to have a good season and we qualify for the CL, maybe he stays.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

I say kill him and collect the insurance.

 

If things get hairy we can always plant the gloves on Guardiola.

[etho]

This is all well and good but the only way the club is going to improve and keep players like this is if we get in the champions league. The only way we are going to get in the champions league is if we knock Arsenal out of the top 4 as the other 3 are going nowhere, Selling them Suarez doesn't just make us weaker it makes them a lot stronger. If he goes there it pretty much seals the top 4 before a ball has been kicked.

 

Yes he is replaceable but that's not the whole story. We would genuinely be better selling him to Real Madrid for 20m than Arsenal for 55m.

 

Exactly. We could just about lose him to City or Chelsea, as painful as that would be. We simply can't sell him to Arsenal. It will be the nail in the coffin for us as a team with realistic ambitions of competing at the top end of the league.

 

We'd be better off paying Real Madrid 10 million to take him, than giving him to Arsenal.

[Ne Moe Imya]

The club better fucking not be saying to him stay one more season and if we dont qualify for the CL, we'll sanction a move for you! No fucking way should we even be thinking that. That just encourages players set a demand on the club and agitate for a move a season before they actually do.

 

Too late!

 

I don't understand all this "we should tell him he has to give us one more season and then if we don't make CL we'll let him go" talk.

 

That's obviously what we did LAST SUMMER. He has a clause in his new deal that says that if we didn't finish in the top 4 and someone bid over £40 million, he could talk to the club that made the offer. Now, obviously, there is some confusion, but it seems clear that Luis and his representatives felt that this was a release clause, and presumably did when they signed the deal.

 

I think what everyone's proposing is exactly what we did last summer. We said "Listen, Luis, we know you are a star and want CL football. Take a pay raise, give us one year and if we're not in the CL you can go as long as we get a good bid." There might be some dispute about the exact nature of the clause but I don't think that this trick is going to work again.

 

Well, it might in a way, because we seem to have worded the clause in a way that allows us to inform him of the bid and negotiate wages, but where we aren't forced to accept it. Regardless, I don't think that this angle is going to work twice. He's either going to go (far the more likely option at this point) or stay and not be very happy (which might not matter as long as he produces on the pitch).

[Anubis]

I say kill him and collect the insurance.

 

If things get hairy we can always plant the gloves on Guardiola.

 

You'd have to make sure they fit. We don't want an OJ-style aquittal.

[Guest San Don]

Dont know if anyone has seen this. A lawyer's comments on this clause. Clause

 

Liverpool seem very confident about the £40 million-plus-one clause in Luis Suárez’s contract, and it is entirely possible that the striker, or those advising him, have misunderstood the technical terms of the agreement and/or their effect.

 

Normally, a player at one English club cannot speak to another without written consent until after the third Saturday in May in the last year of his playing contract.

 

But players are able to negotiate all sorts of clauses into a contract, from straight release clauses to those which allow them to speak to other clubs earlier.

 

So Liverpool could have written into the contract that if an offer comes in over £40 million, then Suárez has the right to talk to the club involved, in this case Arsenal.

 

That would allow Arsenal to determine whether he actually wants to join them and whether they are able to agree personal terms.

 

But that does not mean that Liverpool will agree or be obliged to actually transfer him or terminate his playing contract early.

 

 

 

What Suárez and his agent may have done is got confused between the Spanish system and the English system.

 

If Suárez had been playing for, say, Atlético Madrid and he wanted a release from his contract (as is normal in Spain), he would have written in that he has the right to buy himself out for say £40 million. The buying club then pays him to do that and the payment is effectively redirected to Atlético. In England, transfer fees are paid directly between clubs.

 

It is possible that Liverpool were very specific with Suárez and his representatives when they agreed his most recent contract.

 

A lot of it is to do with the drafting, which has to be very precise. For example, you could try to write into your contract that it would be foreshortened by, say, two years in the event that your club does not qualify for Champions League football.

 

However, clubs do not like the idea of players become free agents at the end of a particular season, so they could try to make the release clause conditional on a transfer bid coming in on specific terms above a certain amount.

 

This is where the drafting becomes quite complicated and you need to be careful about how it is constructed. Release clauses were pretty unusual in English football 10 or more years ago.

 

If you go back pre-2004, the Premier League money was less. As the amount of on- and off-the-pitch income has gone up, and as clubs’ desire to employ a player at the peak of his form has increased, release clauses haver become more and more common. I have seen it quite a lot over the last few years but I tend to deal with particularly high-value players.

 

Footballers’ contracts do not have too many odd clauses – unlike those in the music business. What you sometimes get are football versions of moral turpitude clauses, especially where the player might have a particular history.

 

Occasionally, there are provisions for houses, for payment of rent for an extended period, signing-on fees, and customised loyalty bonuses.

 

There are also now image-rights structures, how they blend in, how you apportion image rights between the club and player. But nothing particularly fancy.

 

Graham Shear, LDR Partner and Head of Sport at international law firm Berwin Leighton Paisner, worked on the Ashley Cole tapping-up case in 2006.

[MLB]

It seems that he just wants Champion's League football for the sake of playing Champion's League football. He doesn't seem to care that Arsenal are a club with no realistic chance of actually winning it. He doesn't seem to care that they haven't won anything for fucking years. He just wants to play in the CL.

 

Bizarre if you ask me.

[GJM]

The club better fucking not be saying to him stay one more season and if we dont qualify for the CL, we'll sanction a move for you! No fucking way should we even be thinking that. That just encourages players set a demand on the club and agitate for a move a season before they actually do.

 

I don't like the idea of it either (and it was just me guessing, not based on anything else), but, the reality is that his value will depreciate over the year simply because his contract will have run down by 12 months, plus the club will find it very difficult to persuade him to stay on for longer if, this time next year, we are not offering CL football.

 

It's a gamble, and one that will have no appeal to Suarez if he dead set on leaving now, but if it gives us a better chance of getting into the top 4 this season then it may be one the club thinks is worth taking.

[etho]

If we are under no legal obligation to sell him, then don't sell him to Arsenal. Let him go on strike, let him go to court, let him train alone. Sell him in January to whoever is willing to take him then.

 

We wouldn't have strengthened Arsenal and fucked ourself, even if we lose 20 million off his value. His reputation as a professional will be permanently tarnished.

 

I am praying the club are seeing it this way too.

[M_B]

It seems that he just wants Champion's League football for the sake of playing Champion's League football. He doesn't seem to care that Arsenal are a club with no realistic chance of actually winning it. He doesn't seem to care that they haven't won anything for fucking years. He just wants to play in the CL.

 

Bizarre if you ask me.

 

He'll have sponsorship\advertising deals that have bonuses for him being in the CL..... or sponsorship deals that are conditional that he be in the CL.

 

Plus I guess its every top players desire to be in the CL unless they have a particular attachment to a club.

[GJM]

On the subject of losing your best player and Arsenal, I was surprised when I looked back over the results of the past two seasons to see that Arsenal were no worse off, and Manchester United no better off, as a result of van Persie's move between the two clubs.

 

Arsenal finished with 3 more points last season than the one before (when van Persie had his record goal scoring season), scoring only 2 less goals, whereas Manchester United ended up with exactly the same number of points and scored three goals fewer than in the previous season.

 

That surprised me, but it does suggest that losing your best player/top goal scorer is not necessarily the disaster that is often assumed.

[Lario]

Dont know if anyone has seen this. A lawyer's comments on this clause. Clause

 

Egg-fucking-zakly. Been saying the same for a few days. The agent has fucked up the translation and the club are 100% in the right.

 

Now ye fuckers, see what ye do about that!

[Mathewbet1]

Players will come and go even ones as great as Louis Suarez. The club will prevail. These are testing times but we have to invest in youth now. If we can get a young group sorted we will be in a very good state in 3 seasons time.