Our midfield

[TheHowieLama]

Fuck yeah!!

[HBenn]

38 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

So it's klopp's fault? He sticks with who he has because that's what the peasant budget allows. 

I'm not too arsed about milner and Henderson. In fact at least milner is on the pitch. And maybe so would Henderson be if he didn't play through injuries protect the losers that don't. 

 

Chamberlain and keita though, they should have been fucked off ages ago. They're creating a culture where it's alright to be on holiday every day. 

Personally I think everything that is wrong with us starts at the low levels we've got in midfield. We saw today, klopp has pretty much given up on them. Just stick loads of forwards on and hope nobody notices we don't have a midfield. The full backs aren't playing well too, but their role completely depends on how the midfield plays. 

No chance. 

Agree with all of this. There is a reason they call it the engine room. Performing well it protects the defence, joins everything up  and helps the team play fluidly. 

This season I just hope that Thiago can stay fit, Carvalho and Elliott can kick on and Jürgen can get Arthur loving his football again. 

As bad as we have been, being able to put a consistent 3 out would help us no end imo.

[an tha]

15 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Sorry my mistake. I thought we bought him on a 6 year deal. It seems we added one extra year, which clearly was a massive fuck up. 

Indeed

[an tha]

4 minutes ago, HBenn said:

Agree with all of this. There is a reason they call it the engine room. Performing well it protects the defence, joins everything up  and helps the team play fluidly. 

This season I just hope that Thiago can stay fit, Carvalho and Elliott can kick on and Jürgen can get Arthur loving his football again. 

As bad as we have been, being able to put a consistent 3 out would help us no end imo.

Happened last season...was a revolving door week after week first half of season...could barely get same 3 out 2 games in a row.

 

It was chopping and changing game to game.

 

This was what happened 1st 19 games of last season:

 

These are the 3's we have fielded in our 19 league games so far - it has been ridiculously unsettled.

 

Keita, Milner, Oxlade

 

Elliott, Henderson, Keita (so 2 changes)

 

Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

 

Thiago, Fabinho, Elliott (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Jones, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

 

Jones, Fabinho, Henderson (First unchanged midfield of season)

 

Keita, Henderson, Milner (2 changes, first game after we put out an unchanged midfield for first time all season and we have 2 changes)

 

Keita, Henderson, Milner

 

Keita, Henderson, Jones (1 change)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Henderson (2 changes)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (3 games unchanged - longest of season)

 

Oxlade, Henderson, Thiago (1 change)

 

Milner, Morton, Keita (3 changes)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Henderson (3 changes)

 

So in 19 games we only managed to get an unchanged midfield out 5 times and longest we went without a change was 3 games.

 

Results were worse than 2nd half of season when we got a much more consistent 3 out.

 

This season has seen us start in a similarly unsettled manner in midfield.

 

Fulham: Thiago, Fabinho, Henderson

Palace: Elliott, Fabinho, Milner (2 changes)

Mancs:  Miner, Henderson, Elliott (1change)

Bournemouth: Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

Newcastle: Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (unchanged)

Bitters: Carvalho, Fabinho, Elliott (1 change)

 

 

[George Costanza]

There are other issues with the team, not least some indivdual perfromances but the lack of a midfield is really hampering us.  There's no londer any solidity or control. There's a lack of protection for the defence which means we're getting more exposed - Trent in particualar and this might be affecting his confidence.  Tiago was brought in to offer more control but he needs 'legs' around him.  Henderson & Fabinho are both struggling and lack pace, Keita is an injury prone waste of space.  Even before the injuries in pre season I thought we needed a long term Henderson & Fabinho repalcements to come and bed in over this & next season.

[devilsadvocate]

Henderson gets stick but we probably win if he plays today. 

[Barrington Womble]

18 minutes ago, an tha said:

I was talking about Oxlade mind not Keita, mate.

 

Jones was a weird one today he was on bench for 1st time this season on weds then today isn't with the Bajcetic kid on it...

 

On Wednesday I was thinking something wasn't right with Jones when he didn't get a chance. The bench we had and we're chasing the game and we didn't want him on. An equivalent would be Jota today..we needed him but still gave him 15 mins or whatever it was. Then Jones going missing again makes you wonder if he's broken down, maybe even as late as warm up or something for Newcastle and we didn't replace him because nobody was there. 

 

It's all a nightmare though..we started an away derby today with 2 lads in their entire professional career don't have 20 matches in midfield between them. It was a brave choice from klopp - but his alternatives were clearly milner and Arthur who he wasn't even expecting to get clearance. It's like 20/21 all over again. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

5 minutes ago, devilsadvocate said:

Henderson gets stick but we probably win if he plays today. 

Why do we, we've been playing as bad with him in the side. Thiago is our biggest miss but I think our problems can't be fixed with just one player.

[ManéMan]

While Elliot and Carvalho have been great, it's not a great idea to rebuild a side that's been competing for the big titles with teenagers that have come up from the championship. We needed players who are ready to come into such a side here and now.

 

We are either trying to be too clever or more realistically, doing things on the cheap.

[George Costanza]

7 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 It's like 20/21 all over again. 

Yep but this time we won't be salvaging it by getting top 4. We'll be lucky to finish top 6

[Section_31]

4 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

While Elliot and Carvalho have been great, it's not a great idea to rebuild a side that's been competing for the big titles with teenagers that have come up from the championship. We needed players who are ready to come into such a side here and now.

 

We are either trying to be too clever or more realistically, doing things on the cheap.

They're long term signings I suspect. I doubt they'd be playing if Thiago, Keita, Chamberlain et al weren't such sicknotes.

[Barrington Womble]

8 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

They're long term signings I suspect. I doubt they'd be playing if Thiago, Keita, Chamberlain et al weren't such sicknotes.

I doubt it would have crossed anyone's mind to play carvalho in midfield either. He got brought into the equation at the start of the summer as "and if 8 aren't enough" argument. And by match game 6 they're not. 

[HBenn]

14 minutes ago, an tha said:

Happened last season...was a revolving door week after week first half of season...could barely get same 3 out 2 games in a row.

 

It was chopping and changing game to game.

 

This was what happened 1st 19 games of last season:

 

These are the 3's we have fielded in our 19 league games so far - it has been ridiculously unsettled.

 

Keita, Milner, Oxlade

 

Elliott, Henderson, Keita (so 2 changes)

 

Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

 

Thiago, Fabinho, Elliott (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Jones, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

 

Jones, Fabinho, Henderson (First unchanged midfield of season)

 

Keita, Henderson, Milner (2 changes, first game after we put out an unchanged midfield for first time all season and we have 2 changes)

 

Keita, Henderson, Milner

 

Keita, Henderson, Jones (1 change)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Henderson (2 changes)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (1 change)

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago

 

Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago (3 games unchanged - longest of season)

 

Oxlade, Henderson, Thiago (1 change)

 

Milner, Morton, Keita (3 changes)

 

Oxlade, Fabinho, Henderson (3 changes)

 

So in 19 games we only managed to get an unchanged midfield out 5 times and longest we went without a change was 3 games.

 

Results were worse than 2nd half of season when we got a much more consistent 3 out.

 

This season has seen us start in a similarly unsettled manner in midfield.

 

Fulham: Thiago, Fabinho, Henderson

Palace: Elliott, Fabinho, Milner (2 changes)

Mancs:  Miner, Henderson, Elliott (1change)

Bournemouth: Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (1 change)

Newcastle: Elliott, Fabinho, Henderson (unchanged)

Bitters: Carvalho, Fabinho, Elliott (1 change)

 

 

Thanks for the detail.

 

It just feels like they have had to take a safety in numbers approach in there and one of the side effects is we lack fluency, start slowly etc.

 

When that is coupled with two full backs that are clearly not fit and a forward line where the main new striker is finding his feet and it seems to be stifling the other two a bit it probably shouldn't surprise us.

 

Looking at a load of footage of Arthur, I don't see a load of the criticisms that were labelled at him. He looks like he likes to press and doesn't mind a tackle, carries the ball well and is technically excellent.

 

If Jürgen can get in his head and we can get him playing regularly that may give us a 3 with him, Fabinho and Harvey. He certainly can't be knackered from over playing!

[an tha]

11 minutes ago, HBenn said:

Thanks for the detail.

 

It just feels like they have had to take a safety in numbers approach in there and one of the side effects is we lack fluency, start slowly etc.

 

When that is coupled with two full backs that are clearly not fit and a forward line where the main new striker is finding his feet and it seems to be stifling the other two a bit it probably shouldn't surprise us.

 

Looking at a load of footage of Arthur, I don't see a load of the criticisms that were labelled at him. He looks like he likes to press and doesn't mind a tackle, carries the ball well and is technically excellent.

 

If Jürgen can get in his head and we can get him playing regularly that may give us a 3 with him, Fabinho and Harvey. He certainly can't be knackered from over playing!

We simply have too many unreliable midfielders and not enough like for like/similar quality replacements - so we have to hammer square pegs into round holes and it causes that lack of fluency/cohesion with the constant changes that have to happen and players being asked to do jobs they aren't ideally suited to or worse in some cases can't do to the required level.

 

The results speak for themselves about how it affects team.

 

Last season 1st games: 41 pts....changes almost weekly as detailed in post further up.

 

2nd 19 games: 51 pts....much more settled midfield/Thiago and Fabinho playing regularly.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

7 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

While Elliot and Carvalho have been great, it's not a great idea to rebuild a side that's been competing for the big titles with teenagers that have come up from the championship. We needed players who are ready to come into such a side here and now.

 

We are either trying to be too clever or more realistically, doing things on the cheap.

Young players give us intensity, I like that. Especially young hungry technically good players.

 

What we miss is dynamism in midfield and up front. In a top midfield it's needed to make chances, like KDB does, like Yaya Toure used to do, like Kante used to do, like Gerrard used to do, you get the picture.  That's why we paid so much money for Chamberlain and Keita.

 

Without it we're just flat, trying to force our  passes into forwards who are either too wide (Salah, Diaz) or marked by 3 players (Firmino, Nunez, Jota). 

The midfielders don't run to join them because they are now expecting our forward to lose the ball, and invariably they do, and Trent is usually caught between a rock and a hard place when the ball is lost. 

 

Today saw Klopp trying something akin to a 424, with Carvalho joining the front 3.  It lessens the need for a dynamic 8 in midfield if it worked, but it didn't. 

 

For me, and I know it's a mad one, I'd be going back to 433 and using Diaz as the 8.  He has the raw dynamism and creativity to recreate what KDB does to an extent, but strong, tall, good in the air, hard in the challenge.

 

 

Becker

 

Trent (for now)

Virgil

Gomez

Tsimikas

 

Fabinho

Diaz

Henderson

 

Jota

Firmino

Salah

[HBenn]

11 minutes ago, an tha said:

We simply have too many unreliable midfielders and not enough like for like/similar quality replacements - so we have to hammer square pegs into round holes and it causes that lack of fluency/cohesion with the constant changes that have to happen and players being asked to do jobs they aren't ideally suited to or worse in some cases can't do to the required level.

 

The results speak for themselves about how it affects team.

 

Last season 1st games: 41 pts....changes almost weekly as detailed in post further up.

 

2nd 19 games: 51 pts....much more settled midfield/Thiago and Fabinho playing regularly.

Agree

[johnsusername]

So as well as Thiago, Keita, Ox, Jones being injured, Henderson picked up an injury against Newcastle and Carvahlo today?

 

What the fuck. 

[an tha]

9 minutes ago, johnsusername said:

So as well as Thiago, Keita, Ox, Jones being injured, Henderson picked up an injury against Newcastle and Carvahlo today?

 

What the fuck. 

Fucking relentless isn't it

[Section_31]

27 minutes ago, johnsusername said:

So as well as Thiago, Keita, Ox, Jones being injured, Henderson picked up an injury against Newcastle and Carvahlo today?

 

What the fuck. 

It must be something to do with the training I reckon. We always seem better in the second half of the season than at the start. 

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

Let's hope transfermarkt are right. 

 

 

"Colossal Sports Management"

 

You certainly are. 

[an tha]

We have a massive midfield problem, which isn't news to anyone of course. We fix that and we stop the bleeding.

 

Winning 2nd balls used to be a big strength - it put us on front foot and it often meant we went on front foot against out of shape, stretched teams - Salah and Mane had a field day with a supply of balls for them to attack into space with.

 

Now we win a lot - a hell of a lot less and we don't feed atrack as often/as well as result.

 

We also as a result of not winning as many of those 2nd balls face more attacks - teams are getting at us more because they are winning more of them against us.

 

We need to get this fundamental problem sorted.

 

 

[HBenn]

11 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Why do we, we've been playing as bad with him in the side. Thiago is our biggest miss but I think our problems can't be fixed with just one player.

I don't think our problems can be fixed but I think it's stark just how much of a difference Thiago can make. 

 

The talk last week was that the club were ideally looking for a Thiago type player and it was interesting that Klopp spoke about rhythm so much when describing Arthur. 

 

Personally feel that while we do need more legs in midfield, currently we don't have much rhythm and that maybe why Bobby has been dropped deeper or brought on to get us "playing" as such. Our lack of rhythm is also perhaps exacerbated by the fact that Nunez up top is a work in progress regarding his link up play.

 

A consistent 11 would help with all that but maybe we will see Arthur pretty quickly as well if the intention is he will help with rhythm. From the footage I have seen of him he could give us some legs as well. 

 

The question is whether we would play Arthur, Thiago and Fabinho all in the same team. Personally I would try it as I could see Arthur sitting in behind Trent quite effectively and protecting that space. 

 

Agree with Barrington Womble about Jones though. All a bit odd. 

[stringvest]

8 hours ago, an tha said:

We have a massive midfield problem, which isn't news to anyone of course. We fix that and we stop the bleeding.

 

Winning 2nd balls used to be a big strength - it put us on front foot and it often meant we went on front foot against out of shape, stretched teams - Salah and Mane had a field day with a supply of balls for them to attack into space with.

 

Now we win a lot - a hell of a lot less and we don't feed atrack as often/as well as result.

 

We also as a result of not winning as many of those 2nd balls face more attacks - teams are getting at us more because they are winning more of them against us.

 

We need to get this fundamental problem sorted.

 

 

Thiago and Firmino in tandem would win the 2nd balls - they’ll do it again once their both fit.  People forget how effective Mane was in this regard. 

[Barrington Womble]

37 minutes ago, HBenn said:

I don't think our problems can be fixed but I think it's stark just how much of a difference Thiago can make. 

 

The talk last week was that the club were ideally looking for a Thiago type player and it was interesting that Klopp spoke about rhythm so much when describing Arthur. 

 

Personally feel that while we do need more legs in midfield, currently we don't have much rhythm and that maybe why Bobby has been dropped deeper or brought on to get us "playing" as such. Our lack of rhythm is also perhaps exacerbated by the fact that Nunez up top is a work in progress regarding his link up play.

 

A consistent 11 would help with all that but maybe we will see Arthur pretty quickly as well if the intention is he will help with rhythm. From the footage I have seen of him he could give us some legs as well. 

 

The question is whether we would play Arthur, Thiago and Fabinho all in the same team. Personally I would try it as I could see Arthur sitting in behind Trent quite effectively and protecting that space. 

 

Agree with Barrington Womble about Jones though. All a bit odd. 

Personally I think there's more to our issues than thiago. He hasn't missed the whole season and was very much a part of this slow start we've made. He was poor at Fulham. 

 

We are actually controlling a lot of games. A quick look at our possession will tell you that. Sides are still letting us have the ball and they do this with and without thiago. But the issue is when we lose it, it's all very 20/21 and we seem quite incapable of winning 2nd balls and our pressing does not carry the effectiveness it did before. We've always scored loads of different types of goals. Counter, crafted, set pieces, building pressure and turnover. For me we're scoring a few from set pieces and some from building pressure, even if the goal maybe is a great goal (Diaz v palace, Elliot & Trent v Bournemouth). But I can't even think of a chance we've created from a turnover in possession. And we're maybe not crafting too much. I think the start of everything with us, is our ability to steal goals by turning over possession. Everything else kicks on from that. We need to work out what we're doing wrong in that regard. The press is off, despite how hard the players seem to be working. 

 

We do have some issues with form too. Both (all 3?) full backs look off it. VVD is struggling and making the types of mistakes he never makes. And whatever is happening down the right seems to be stopping us getting Salah into the game - I don't know if it's Trent's lack of form, Salah is a bit wider or Elliot takes some time to move the ball on, maybe a bit of all of it. But we have to start getting Salah into goal scoring positions. 

 

The season isn't really getting any easier, so we need to sort it pretty fucking quickly. 

[HBenn]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

Personally I think there's more to our issues than thiago. He hasn't missed the whole season and was very much a part of this slow start we've made. He was poor at Fulham. 

 

We are actually controlling a lot of games. A quick look at our possession will tell you that. Sides are still letting us have the ball and they do this with and without thiago. But the issue is when we lose it, it's all very 20/21 and we seem quite incapable of winning 2nd balls and our pressing does not carry the effectiveness it did before. We've always scored loads of different types of goals. Counter, crafted, set pieces, building pressure and turnover. For me we're scoring a few from set pieces and some from building pressure, even if the goal maybe is a great goal (Diaz v palace, Elliot & Trent v Bournemouth). But I can't even think of a chance we've created from a turnover in possession. And we're maybe not crafting too much. I think the start of everything with us, is our ability to steal goals by turning over possession. Everything else kicks on from that. We need to work out what we're doing wrong in that regard. The press is off, despite how hard the players seem to be working. 

 

We do have some issues with form too. Both (all 3?) full backs look off it. VVD is struggling and making the types of mistakes he never makes. And whatever is happening down the right seems to be stopping us getting Salah into the game - I don't know if it's Trent's lack of form, Salah is a bit wider or Elliot takes some time to move the ball on, maybe a bit of all of it. But we have to start getting Salah into goal scoring positions. 

 

The season isn't really getting any easier, so we need to sort it pretty fucking quickly. 

Yes, I think there are a number of issues to fix nd some of them we may not be able to fix even when everyone is fit.

 

I think the lack of a consistent 11 is a big one though and why I would be looking to pick an 11 for at least a few weeks and stick with them. 

 

With Mo I think there are probably 4 things impacting it. Arguably the biggest is them changing the way they play to accommodate Nunez. At the moment he reminds me of Ibrahimovic at Barca, who stifled a fluid front 3 by not being able to interchange roles well.  That is something that seems to be impacting Diaz as well. That needs time on the training ground and in matches (and arguably should have been more of a focus on preseason). 

 

Trent and Harvey are another. I don't think Tremt is fit and on top of that I feel when Harvey plays Trent doesn't get the protection he arguably gets when Hendo plays there and that possibly leaves him unsure about how far to bomb on etc. 

 

Affecting that further is the injuries to Matip and Konate. I started to feel much more comfortable towards the back-end of the season with Konate on the right. As he settled his aggression, strength and pace helped us look more secure when he played on the right of the two. The chopping and changing there cannot be helping Trent. 

 

With all of the issues around Jones it makes me wonder whether we will start to see a midfield of Arthur, Fabinho and Elliott with Arthur and Fabinho holding and Elliott allowed to come more central. That may free up some space for Mo and protect Trent a bit more and then when Thiago is fit Thiago come in for Arthur or Elliott.

 

Either way, whatever they do, they need to find an 11 that is consistently available (lot of pressure on Arthur) as these lads imo need consistency. How you can expect to play and prepare well when you are trying to bed in a key new player and have the side disrupted every week with 2-3 enforced changes in key positions? Every team in the world would struggle in those circumstances imo.