Russia v Ukraine

[Captain]

Putin stepping down or voted out.

 

Fucking hell, some on here really do live in a parallel reality.

[SasaS]

9 hours ago, cochyn said:

Remember, Russia thought this would be a 3-day operation where the shock value would prevail and put NATO on the back foot.

 

Their military ineptitude and Ukraine’s heroic efforts (supported by the US and UK’s training and intelligence support together with military aid) stymied that idea. This is now a war they never banked on having to fight, hence their deplorable tactics against civilian ‘targets’.

 

They now find themselves on the back foot: Having to consolidate previous ‘gains’ in Crimea and Donbas. This is significant. And for all the talk of there being a second phase to this war where Russia fight a WW2 style action which might suit their agricultural army. I feel the weight of their holocoustal actions might just impel NATO to step up their support of the Ukrainian army. In fact, I’ll go as far as to say it already has and we’ll see an unprecedented escalation in the Ukranian’s response. And by that I mean the employment of the 21st century response Section alluded to.

Its shit or bust. And given the scope of sanctions  against Russia to date it would be folly to fail to back that up with the necessary military response needed to reach a conclusion. 

 

But out what do I know? All wars end with a diplomatic resolution. It’s just a case of manoeuvring the chess pieces in ones favour before reaching out the olive branch.  Or golden bridge to retreat in this case.

But what is that 21st century response and how exactly is it applied without getting directly involved or giving it to the Ukrainians who may not be trained in it, nor trustred with it? Is it... the Force?

[SasaS]

A "supplement" from Tom Cooper, on the appointment of general Dvornikov and how will this affect the war. Spoiler alert: (possibly) badly (for the Ukrainians).

https://medium.com/@x_TomCooper_x/supplement-reorganisation-of-the-rfa-command-in-ukraine-d1bb674718fc

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Being an early adopter of Putin propaganda isn’t as impressive as you think.  

 

I didn't say it was. It's good to know that I no longer share the same view eight years on and when an actual invasion has taken place. If I did I'd be a full on tankie, not something I'm interested in.

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Captain said:

Putin stepping down or voted out.

 

Fucking hell, some on here really do live in a parallel reality.

 

Yeah being voted out is probably overly hopeful with the way things are, he could step down though in the future (if he's too ill to carry on for instance). If not maybe he's going to be around for a good while longer or we wait until there's some type of coup for him to go. And if it's a coup let's hope that it's not some western planned thing (that could be turned against us in the future), that it works and that there's someone better replacing him.

[Rico1304]

16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I didn't say it was. It's good to know that I no longer share the same view eight years on and when an actual invasion has taken place. If I did I'd be a full on tankie, not something I'm interested in.

You shared the exact same view, even stating ‘both sides’ bollocks on the massacres until their was incontrovertible evidence. You are an apologist.  

[Rico1304]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah being voted out is probably overly hopeful with the way things are, he could step down though in the future (if he's too ill to carry on for instance). If not maybe he's going to be around for a good while longer or we wait until there's some type of coup for him to go. And if it's a coup let's hope that it's not some western planned thing (that could be turned against us in the future), that it works and that there's someone better replacing him.

You’re doing it again!  Fuck me. 

[Rico1304]

What a species we are.  

 

 

[neko]

Bill Clinton talks about Russia and NATO during his time as president...

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bill-clinton-nato-expansion-ukraine/629499/

 

When I first became president, I said that I would support Russian President Boris Yeltsin in his efforts to build a good economy and a functioning democracy after the dissolution of the Soviet Union—but I would also support an expansion of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact members and post-Soviet states. My policy was to work for the best while preparing for the worst. I was worried not about a Russian return to communism, but about a return to ultranationalism, replacing democracy and cooperation with aspirations to empire, like Peter the Great and Catherine the Great. I didn’t believe Yeltsin would do that, but who knew what would come after him?

[Red Phoenix]

35 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

You shared the exact same view, even stating ‘both sides’ bollocks on the massacres until their was incontrovertible evidence. You are an apologist.  

 

No I'm not. Doesn't work, never did. It's just a tired and boring way of trying to shut down debate.

[KMD7]

5 minutes ago, neko said:

Bill Clinton talks about Russia and NATO during his time as president...

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bill-clinton-nato-expansion-ukraine/629499/

 

When I first became president, I said that I would support Russian President Boris Yeltsin in his efforts to build a good economy and a functioning democracy after the dissolution of the Soviet Union—but I would also support an expansion of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact members and post-Soviet states. My policy was to work for the best while preparing for the worst. I was worried not about a Russian return to communism, but about a return to ultranationalism, replacing democracy and cooperation with aspirations to empire, like Peter the Great and Catherine the Great. I didn’t believe Yeltsin would do that, but who knew what would come after him?

Wow, prescient. 

[Red Phoenix]

On 07/04/2022 at 20:05, Rico1304 said:

No one got upset. I said I wouldn’t try them as war crimes in The Hague  but under Ukrainian law.  I fail to see why, as a country that’s been invaded, they should have to play by any rules.  If the Ukrainian courts decided that they weren’t guilty of a crime then that’s up to them.  

 

Nazi war crime apologist?

 

Not fun is it?

[Rico1304]

15 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Nazi war crime apologist?

 

Not fun is it?

I can’t help it if you are too stupid to understand the difference.  Watch out though MI5 are probably in the wardrobe.  

[Red Phoenix]

Let me help those repeating "Putin apologist" all of the time when I post something they don't like.

 

This is from a page I was reading recently on anarchists :

 

Quote

The Ukrainian contributor stresses the difference between fighting in a self-defence group organised by anarchists and fighting ‘for Ukraine’, because anarchists are fighting like the ‘territorial defence units’, i.e. for their towns/communities, not for the Ukrainian state.

 

https://organisemagazine.org.uk/2022/03/12/ukraine-the-anarchist-response-statements/

 

I can fully support that and it helps give a different perspective on how some Ukrainians are seeing this war. That it doesn't have to be fuck all to do with the Ukrainian gov.

 

If you think I'd support Putin over those anarchists defending their towns and communities then you've got something really mixed up.

 

Find a new insult.

[Guest]

Boris Johnson travelling to Kyiv for talks with Zelensky.

 

would now be a good time for a couple of missiles to land there?

[elvis]

47 minutes ago, Shooter in the Motor said:

Boris Johnson travelling to Kyiv for talks with Zelensky.

 

would now be a good time for a couple of missiles to land there?

How the fuck is that flabby arsed fuckwit going to help matters ?

 

[Mudface]

2 minutes ago, elvis said:

How the fuck is that flabby arsed fuckwit going to help matters ?

 

Human shield.

[TheHowieLama]

"We are gonna need a bigger fridge."

[Captain Howdy]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

No I'm not. Doesn't work, never did. It's just a tired and boring way of trying to shut down debate.

There’s nothing to debate you crank 

[SasaS]

39 minutes ago, elvis said:

How the fuck is that flabby arsed fuckwit going to help matters ?

 

Weapon(s).

[Rico1304]

It’s Putin I feel sorry for, he was forced into this remember.  The guys doing it are just following orders.  Ukrainian Nazis would have killed her anyway
 

 

[Red Phoenix]

39 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

There’s nothing to debate you crank 

 

There's loads of stuff that could be debated when it comes to Ukraine, Russia, how both countries got to this point and how other countries in the world respond to what's happening, weapons, sanctions, negotiations, chances of peace and what the situation could look like then and so on.

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's loads of stuff that could be debated when it comes to Ukraine, Russia, how both countries got to this point and how other countries in the world respond to what's happening, weapons, sanctions, negotiations, chances of peace and what the situation could look like then and so on.

We got to this point because Ukraine exists and Putin wants to wipe it off the face of the earth and then claim the territory. He even wrote it down, in a book.  
 

‘Both countries’. Fucking unbelievable. 

[Red Phoenix]

41 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

We got to this point because Ukraine exists and Putin wants to wipe it off the face of the earth and then claim the territory. He even wrote it down, in a book.  
 

‘Both countries’. Fucking unbelievable. 

 

Yes both countries. Some ignore Ukrainian history, some don't.

 

That's another thing in here to try and stop debate/discussion : accusations that people are trying to paint both sides as equally responsible when there's been nothing to suggest that at all.

 

Yes, you can debate how Ukraine got to this point. You can debate whether or not it's true that different events took place before the invasion and how accurate they are, whether or not things could have been different if Ukraine had better democracy and negotiations in recent years had gone differently because of that, whether or not the invasion could have been avoided if the Ukrainian gov had managed to have better relations with Russia, whether or not the invasion could've been avoided if they'd made peace with the separatists before the invasion, or if they could've defended better if they were prepared differently and what type of preperations would they have needed in different areas.

 

It's not an attempt to blame everything on Ukraine at all but if that's the first reaction, again are we trying to shut down discussion of things we don't like to read about?

 

Then you can flip the questions to Russia and add others. Would they have invaded if the country had better democracy and Putin had more chance of being held to account by his people or if the media propaganda in Russia hadn't been so over the top, or the authoritarianism shutting down protests. If Putin had managed to put more effort into having better relations with Ukraine could this have been avoided, or if he'd been more willing to discuss the future of Crimea or Donbas, and so on.

 

So I don't think it's that "fucking unbelievable" really. I thought it was a thread to discuss things.

[ManéMan]

Looks like that train station strike on civilians was one of their own missiles