Do you agree with this statement?

[Stu Monty]

The statement in question being:

 

At the start of the next season LFC will be starting from, at best, fifth on the grid.

 

Now I'm saying this even if we were to put a surge together and finish third or second. In my opinion, taking into account the budget we have for transfers and wages and the infrastructure of the club, that's our starting position.

 

Now, I'm not really wanting this to be a debate about whether you think we should be aiming to finish top from where we are, just where you think we start each season from. My assertion is that with two teams with billionaire owners and two with large stadiums and managers who have been there for well over a decade, two for Utd, that we start the race in fifth place.

 

Do you accept that as the reality of the current situation?

[harryo63]

yes

[harryo63]

yes

 

and no

[piscinin]

Mancini is the unknown that will decide between 4th and 5th.

[zigackly]

I think we started in second this season and blew it Stu. Fuck knows where we will finish this season, but wherever it is that will be our starting position for the season afterwards.

 

I don't subscribe to the point of view that money is the only contributing factor to success. If I did, I would have to give up watching football.

 

We have a good enough squad to be performing MUCH better than we are.

[Bogman]

aye, possibly, with a prevailing wind

[Guest TK-421]

How long before the words "lowering" and "expectations" are used..

[Strontium]

Yes I do, and I also think it is unreasonable to expect us to finish in the top 4 by rights when there are 4 clubs better equpped to do so.

[piscinin]

I think we started in second this season and blew it Stu. Fuck knows where we will finish this season, but wherever it is that will be our starting position for the season afterwards.

 

I don't subscribe to the point of view that money is the only contributing factor to success. If I did, I would have to give up watching football.

 

We have a good enough squad to be performing MUCH better than we are.

 

To be fair I think Stu has cast the net a bit wider than just money.

[Stu Monty]

I think we started in second this season and blew it Stu. Fuck knows where we will finish this season, but wherever it is that will be our starting position for the season afterwards.

 

I don't subscribe to the point of view that money is the only contributing factor to success. If I did, I would have to give up watching football.

 

We have a good enough squad to be performing MUCH better than we are.

 

I think your last finish isn't exactly your start position for the next season. When Reading finished high in the league (was it sixth?) you'd be insane to think that they were staring the season with the sixth best position of stregnth. You just naturally recognise a team having a good season of over-performance.

[zigackly]

I think your last finish isn't exactly your start position for the next season. When Reading finished high in the league (was it sixth?) you'd be insane to think that they were staring the season with the sixth best position of stregnth. You just naturally recognise a team having a good season of over-performance.

 

How else do you measure it if not over 38 games against your peers? That's the best you could achieve the season before. Now you have to do something to improve it ...

[melons]

Yes I do, and I also think it is unreasonable to expect us to finish in the top 4 by rights when there are 4 clubs better equpped to do so.

 

Agree completely.

[zigackly]

To be fair I think Stu has cast the net a bit wider than just money.

 

"In my opinion, taking into account the budget we have for transfers and wages and the infrastructure of the club, that's our starting position."

 

It's as if the quality of our football has no input.

[Lurtz]

Isn't your starting position wherever you finished last season? So er, no.*

 

Feels like it though.

 

 

 

 

*Based on the blind optimism that we'll finish 4th this year, third in the unlikely event of an Arsenal implosion and a world class winning streak from us.

[Stu Monty]

How else do you measure it if not over 38 games against your peers? That's the best you could achieve the season before. Now you have to do something to improve it ...

 

I do see what you're saying but I don't think it's as simple as that. If you take Reading as the example; those championship players have done brilliantly and shown that they're good enough to play in the premier league. But then, as Reading, if you want to keep those players you'll now have to find the money to give them all contracts befitting of players that finish sixth in the league. If you don't have the infrastructure to do that then retaining that sixth place will be very difficult.

 

I think that it might be fair to say that a great previous season could give you maybe a one position bump on the grid, to take into account momentum at the club, but, as Leeds found out, you don't last long on that before the financial realities of trying to jump a few positions hit you in the face.

[zigackly]

I do see what you're saying but I don't think it's as simple as that. If you take Reading as the example; those championship players have done brilliantly and shown that they're good enough to play in the premier league. But then, as Reading, if you want to keep those players you'll now have to find the money to give them all contracts befitting of players that finish sixth in the league. If you don't have the infrastructure to do that then retaining that sixth place will be very difficult.

 

I think that it might be fair to say that a great previous season could give you maybe a one position bump on the grid, to take into account momentum at the club, but, as Leeds found out, you don't last long on that before the financial realities of trying to jump a few positions hit you in the face.

 

You asked about grid position. No sport assigns grid position based on financial resources to my mind, it is something you qualify for based on performance.

 

The analogy doesn't really fit football, but it is EXACTLY your performances on the pitch which determine your finishing position each season. And for me it's the only fair way to measure how good you are.

 

I can show you endless examples of footballers who cost too much, either to purchase or in terms of wage bill, and then never delivered. Far too many examples for me to believe it's a good way to measure potential.

[Stu Monty]

You asked about grid position. No sport assigns grid position based on financial resources to my mind, it is something you qualify for based on performance.

 

The analogy doesn't really fit football, but it is EXACTLY your performances on the pitch which determine your finishing position each season. And for me it's the only fair way to measure how good you are.

 

I can show you endless examples of footballers who cost too much, either to purchase or in terms of wage bill, and then never delivered. Far too many examples for me to believe it's a good way to measure potential.

 

I agree about finishing position defining how good you were, I just disagree that it then defines your position of strength that you start from the next season. I say we finished second from fourth on the grid last season. And wherever we finish this season, be it sixth or third, I'd say that was also from fourth on the grid (regardless of finishing second).

[zigackly]

We evidently see this in a different light Stu. I see our financial fitness as one determining factor in our performance, but not as important a one as how good our players are and how good the manager is at shaping them into a coherent team.

 

Last season we were good enough to finish second. Anyone saying we weren't would be properly mad in my opinion, as it goes against the established facts in a big way.

 

Our activities in the transfer window took us backwards to some degree, that's obvious. Unfortunately we have also forgotten completely how to play football. And it's this, not the value of our squad which is hurting us in an incredibly painful way.

 

If we honestly believed we could not expect to finish better than fifth without overachievement, I'm thinking that would have been a lovely panacea.

[G Richards]

I think it is a decent analogy and agree we will start fifth on the grid next season. That doesn't mean we can't finish higher or even challenge for the title. But it is the reality of the situation.

[zigackly]

If you spend £30M on Veron, does it make your football team better than a team which cost £30M less?

 

If I give you a massive wage rise, will you do your job that much better?

 

There is a correlation, but it's only as good as our collective valuations of players, which are batshit crazy every single season.

[Tom R]

we're an established CL club and have been for many years.

 

To suggest that City are ahead of us "on the grid" is just silly.

 

We came second last season, didn't we? So we started second "on the grid" this year.

 

I'd argue on the criteria you set there - wages, personell, infrastucture etc - that we're ahead of Arsenal as well.

 

Only man U and Chelsea should be "ahead" of us, theoretically.

 

Shouldn't really matter though. Not one bit.

To win the league all you really have to do is beat all the teams that are worse than you, or to use this silly game - started on the grid behind you!

 

Man U have won 3 back to backl leagues doing just that - steamrolling the shit, whilst very often getting trounced and hardly taking any points off "big 4", especially last year.

 

our problem is that we treat playing Wolves the same as we do playing Man U.

 

We took more point off those "ahead of us on the grid" than anyone last season. What we didn't do was beat the shite.

[Whelan]

 

To win the league all you really have to do is beat all the teams that are worse than you, or to use this silly game - started on the grid behind you!

 

So you still finish 3rd then?

[JohnnyH]

I don't think there is any doubt we are starting from fifth at best. But as others have said, that doesn't mean we can't finish 3rd or possibly even 2nd. We have no chance whatsoever of winning the title though. That would require all 4 much better placed teams to have an off season.

[zigackly]

So you still finish 3rd then?

 

Only because it's a useless analogy ;)

[Tom R]

So you still finish 3rd then?

 

Er no, Alfred Einstein.

 

as you may have noticed - I already pointed out that we have a great record against those supposedly "ahead of us on the grid", which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole premise, frankly. But I'll play the game anyway!

 

Beating those ahead of us on this stupid grid quite simply isn't our problem.

 

our problem is that the manager treats every team like they're ahead of us on the silly grid thing.

 

"Controlling" teams like man u and chelsea is all well and good, and perfectly understandable, but when we do it against some of the worst teams in this league, and even the one below, and fuckinghell even the one below that one, then there needs to be serious questions asked.