Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Boss]

Not a surprise, at the end of the day, despite the 'Tory' rhetoric against his predecessors, Corbyn has voted with the Tories in Parliament more than Blair etc ever did.

 

Well that's usually what happens when you've been an MP 10 years longer. 

[magicrat]

Propaganda driven nonsense.

 

No, just genuine surprise and lack of any explanation beforehand as to why the Labour front bench was trooping hand in hand with Davies and Fox through the lobbies

[Boss]

No, just genuine surprise and lack of any explanation beforehand as to why the Labour front bench was trooping hand in hand with Davies and Fox through the lobbies

 

It was a backbench proposal that was going to be defeated anyway. 283 Conservative MP's voted to defeat it, only 18 Labour MP's voted to defeat it. It was an advisory whip. The MP's were free to vote as they chose. 

[Strontium]

Well that's usually what happens when you've been an MP 10 years longer.

Even if you limit it just to the years they served together, who do you think Corbyn was voting with all those hundreds of occasions he rebelled against his own party?

 

This is just business as usual.

[Rico1304]

But they said we could...

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-we-can-t-have-our-cake-and-eat-it-in-an-eu-deal-a3697211.html

[Guest Pistonbroke]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.

 

 

The Tory Government has outdone itself when it comes to neglecting animal rights this week – by voting that all animals (apart from humans, of course) have no emotions or feelings, including the ability to feel pain.

Remember all that campaigning against the badger cull and May’s attempt to bring back fox-hunting? It was probably all a waste. As the Government begins to shape the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, it has taken a vote to scrap EU legislation that sees non-human animals as sentient beings. Once we leave the EU in 2019, it’s not only badgers and foxes that will be threatened by this change in law, but all animals that aren’t pets. So basically all animals that it will be profitable to exploit.

This vote comes in contrast to extensive scientific evidence that shows that other animals do have feelings and emotions, some even stronger than ours.

But politicians clearly think that they know better about animal brains than the majority of scientists on the planet. This complete lack of logic leads me to believe that many of our MPs probably have less intelligence than a jellyfish. But unfortunately I don’t have any stake in Parliament to vote through my personal opinions, unlike those MPs.

Realistically though, who would be surprised by this new vote? Despite Michael Gove’s calls to improve animal welfare standards post-Brexit, we all know the Government, and in fact most of the UK public, doesn’t really care about animals unless they’re cute and fluffy.

This is how we have ended up in a society where a cat being thrown in a bin sparks national outrage, but the majority of the population will complain about this while eating a burger from the local fast food chain which has probably come from a chicken that suffered abuse its whole life.

“Animal welfare” in the Government’s (and indeed the public’s) eyes is riddled with double standards. At the moment, 80 per cent of the UK’s animal welfare legislation comes from the EU – if we’re voting out the fact that animals are sentient, why would we even bother with the rest of it? If the Government doesn’t believe that animals can even feel pain, surely none of their rights will be protected at all.

When we leave the EU, pets will be protected by the Animal Welfare Act 2006. But where does this leave wild animals, those in labs, and those in other forms of captivity? Just a small example of this is cosmetics testing. Under EU law it is illegal to test on animals for cosmetics like body wash and nail varnish. But this could easily be scrapped just like the recognition of animals as sentient beings has been.

We are looking at a very grim future for animals, where hunting is reintroduced, labs are free to test on animals with as much cruelty as they wish (and no pain relief) and farms are less and less regulated.

But what worries me most about this development is that it shows just how much potential havoc Brexit could cause. Voting the recognition of animal sentience out of UK legislation is a pretty big deal, but it’s barely been reported on in mainstream news outlets. As each EU law is put to the vote, I wonder how many more will be scrapped without being brought to the public’s attention. Why are we not being consulted about what laws are being changed? Why are we barely even being told?

In the next two years, the Government will make a multitude of changes in the hope that when 2019 comes, our laws will have altered so much that no amount of campaigning at that time will be able to overturn the decisions made. Campaigners will be forced to pick the one or two “most important” rights to get back, and everything else will go through unchallenged.

It will be too difficult to change every single law when it is implemented in 2019. It is not too difficult now, however, to tackle each dodgy vote as it makes its way through Parliament.

In the coming weeks and months, MPs will be voting on our future. They will be voting on the future of other animals, but they will also be voting on the future of the environment and human beings. So let’s challenge this sham vote on animal feelings, and let’s challenge the rest of the nonsense the Tory Government tries to throw at us too.

[Boss]

Even if you limit it just to the years they served together, who do you think Corbyn was voting with all those hundreds of occasions he rebelled against his own party?

 

This is just business as usual.

 

Are you going to ignore the occasions he rebelled against his own party, where he was proven totally justified in doing so, like the Iraq War for example?

[Strontium]

Are you going to ignore the occasions he rebelled against his own party, where he was proven totally justified in doing so, like the Iraq War for example?

Not at all, and I'm pleased that Jeremy joined with the Lib Dems on that issue, but then again, I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it where siding with the Tories is concerned.

[moof]

I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it where siding with the Tories is concerned.

Come again?

[Boss]

Not at all, and I'm pleased that Jeremy joined with the Lib Dems on that issue, but then again, I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it where siding with the Tories is concerned.

 

Presumably the plan is for Britain to forge a new customs arrangement post Brexit and both of the main parties will come to a consensus to combine their efforts to that effect.

 

Why would they hamstring themselves by mandating a protection of the Customs Union, when the Custom Union imposes a Common External Tariff on non EU goods, at a time when we'll be leaving the EU and need to forge tariff free non EU trade deals to survive?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Sorry but your last sentence is utter twaddle. Progressive socialists? Like who? Mandelson and Blair?

 

It's not that long ago (before the labour party was taken over by your 'progressive socialists that it was in the party manifesto that we would pull out in the next parliament.

 

What do you think progressive socialists make of the eu ttip privatization bullshit? You think the social progressive people who faught for and created our nhs would have welcomed the eu proposals?

Mandelson and Blair are neither Socialist nor progressive. They are neoliberals; the kind of people who support TTIP and an unreformed, neoliberal EU.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Even if you limit it just to the years they served together, who do you think Corbyn was voting with all those hundreds of occasions he rebelled against his own party?

 

On what issues?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-government-vote-animal-sentience-cant-feel-pain-eu-withdrawal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.

 

The Tory Government has outdone itself when it comes to neglecting animal rights this week – by voting that all animals (apart from humans, of course) have no emotions or feelings, including the ability to feel pain

Tories (apart from Ken Clarke) voted against retention of the EU Convention on Human Rights, too.

 

It's not just animals who are going to suffer.

[Gnasher]

Mandelson and Blair are neither Socialist nor progressive. They are neoliberals; the kind of people who support TTIP and an unreformed, neoliberal EU.

Exactly. The ttip bollocks was signed sealed and thankfully not delivered by the big wigs in the eu. Care to deny the ttip policy? It's stinks. I know our government are worse but please do not lable the eu with progressive socialism.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Exactly. The ttip bollocks was signed sealed and thankfully not delivered by the big wigs in the eu. Care to deny the ttip policy? It's stinks. I know our government are worse but please do not lable the eu with progressive socialism.

I didn't.

[Rico1304]

It seems it’s a surprise to some that we won’t be able to apply to be the European capital of culture after Brexit.

[Rico1304]

This may make their heads explode.

 

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/933840248295034880

[Moctezuma]

What a colossal surprise

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/23/irish-report-shows-eu-lack-of-respect-for-uk-handling-of-brexit

 

Irish report shows lack of respect in EU for UK's handling of Brexit

 

Leaked paper says David Davis’s failure to mention Brexit confused French, and Czechs thought Boris Johnson ‘unimpressive’

 

The near contempt felt by European leaders at the British government’s management of the Brexit negotiations, and their concerns over the “unimpressive” and “surprising” behaviour of Boris Johnson and David Davis, have been revealed by a confidential report drawn up by the Irish government.

 

The leaked document, from the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, is based on recent meetings with counterparts in European capitals and paints a damning picture of the diplomatic efforts of senior British politicians.

 

At a meeting between the Brexit secretary, David Davis, and the French ministers for defence and European affairs, Jean-Yves Le Drian and Nathalie Loiseau, on 23 October, the British cabinet minister is said to have left his hosts confused by barely mentioning the ongoing Brexit negotiations.

 

“Despite having billed this in the media in advance,” the paper states, “as a meeting to ‘unblock’ French resistance, Davis hardly mentioned Brexit at all during the meeting, much to French surprise, focusing instead on foreign policy issues.”

 

A minister in the Czech government meanwhile told his Irish interlocutors that Boris Johnson had been “unimpressive” during a visit in September, but he expressed relief that the British foreign secretary had “avoided any gaffes”, according to the document, obtained by the Irish broadcaster RTE.

 

The Czech deputy minister for foreign affairs, Jakub Dürr, is said to have told officials that “he felt sorry for British ambassadors around the EU trying to communicate a coherent message when there is political confusion at home”.

 

In Latvia, senior government officials said UK ministers had made “a poor impression on their rounds of capitals and Latvia is pessimistic with regards to reaching an agreement in December”.

 

The officials added that “the biggest problem is the chaotic political situation in the UK government”.

 

The British judge in the European court of justice, Ian Forrester, is reported as having bemoaned “the quality of politicians in Westminster” during a meeting in Luxembourg with Irish diplomats.

 

Forrester told officials that he had “a fair amount of contact” with the British government on Brexit but that he was concerned by a lack of understanding of the process.

 

He is said to have wondered if the British public might view the UK’s exit from the bloc as “a great mistake” when they realised what it entailed.

 

Forrester is further said to have described British society as “very divided” and noted that it was “difficult to see any solutions to this in the current political context”.

 

The report adds of Forrester: “His hope was that it would gradually dawn on people what leaving actually entailed, that there might be a slow realisation that this was just a great mistake and the mood might swing back to remaining.”

 

The document, compiled from reports from Irish embassies across Europe between 6 and 10 November, comes ahead of a crucial few weeks for Theresa May, as she seeks to persuade the 27 EU member states to move talks on to trade and a future relationship.

 

May is due to meet the president of the European council, Donald Tusk, in the margins of a leaders’ summit in Brussels on Friday, where it is hoped the prime minister will offer more clarity on UK intentions with regard to the estimated €60bn financial settlement, citizens’ rights and the Northern Ireland border.

 

The president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, who will have a crunch dinner with May on 4 December, said on Thursday that it would be seen in the next few days whether Brexit talks with Britain had made enough progress to enter a second phase of negotiations.

 

“We are in intense negotiation with the UK to end the first phase of the talks about topics such as citizen rights, the ‘Ireland problem’, the bill that will have to be paid,” Juncker told a news conference during an official visit to Switzerland.

 

“The worst is behind us, but there has not been sufficient progress for me to say that we can enter the second phase of the talks about our relationship in the future. We’ll see that within the next few days,” he said.

 

Asked about a report the UK could pay £45billion for its Brexit divorce, he said: “I’m not crazy enough to give an immediate answer to the question.”

 

The leaked confidential report from Dublin quotes senior EU figures as being alarmed by “chaos in the Conservative government”, and concerned that the cabinet is simply incapable of forming clear and coherent views on key issues.

 

The Guardian had reported on Wednesday how senior figures in the Spanish government were left surprised by claims from Davis last week that Spain was pushing for a trade deal. “It is amazing how the British misread us,” one senior source said. “Almost as if we speak a different language. They come to us, we say: ‘We will see what we can do.’ But it means nothing.”

 

The Irish document notes that Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, had appeared far from optimistic that a breakthrough would happen in time for the summit on 14 December.

 

At a meeting in Rome, the Italian minister for economic development, Carlo Calenda, told Irish officials that a no-deal scenario could cost Italian businesses €4.5bn.

 

According to the report, the Greek ambassador for EU affairs at the foreign ministry in Athens, Ioannis Metaxas, said he was “preoccupied with Brexit, which would cause ‘big problems’ for Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark”.

 

In reference to Ireland, the report says he was “keen to know what the solutions would be in terms of managing both migratory and customs flows between the north and south”.

 

The Irish government is pushing for the British government to devise an arrangement that in effect keeps Northern Ireland in the single market and customs union to avoid a hard border. On Wednesday, the Irish foreign minister, Simon Coveney, said: “There are other parts of the world whereby one country has difficult jurisdictions in terms of customs arrangements and trading arrangements. Hong Kong is an example of that … China lives with [and] functions with Hong Kong, which has very much been part of Chinese territories, but operating under a different set of rules.”

 

At a meeting in Japan in September, the report says, the deputy head of the Irish government, Frances Fitzgerald, “took every opportunity to make the case for Ireland as the ideal post-Brexit solution for Japanese companies considering investment or expansion in the EU”.

 

On 7 November, Irish embassy officials in Paris met Gaël Veyssiere, the head of cabinet of the French minister for European affairs, who wanted to know how Irish issues would be dealt with in the coming weeks during the negotiations.

 

The paper adds: “He was very negative about the possibility of this happening and about the level of engagement by the UK.”

 

A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said: “We are not commenting on the content of this leaked document.

 

“A core part of the work of our embassies and other missions abroad is to report on the views of our partners on what is a strategically vital issue for Ireland. These routine reports are internal and confidential and are not intended for the public domain.”

[Guest Pistonbroke]

[Anubis]

New York Times article on the effect of Brexit on the NHS.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/world/europe/nhs-brexit-eu-migrants.html

[magicrat]

New York Times article on the effect of Brexit on the NHS.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/world/europe/nhs-brexit-eu-migrants.html

 

Nothing to worry about, they will soon be getting another 350 mill per day, 

[skend04]

New York Times article on the effect of Brexit on the NHS.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/world/europe/nhs-brexit-eu-migrants.html

At this rate there might not be anything for the Tories to sell off.

[lifetime fan]

That cunt Liam Fox doesn’t even give a shit about peace in Ireland. He’d rather his little Ingurland paradise.

 

I’ll be having words with my ol fella for not giving him a slap when he had the chance.

[Rico1304]

A good read

 

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/09/28/brexits-irish-question/

[skend04]

Leaving the single market and customs union is going to be so great for the country that Davis has provided heavily redacted assessments. It's going to be great!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/mps-attack-david-davis-for-handing-over-redacted-brexit-reports