Carragher: What we have seen from this team this season is nowhere near good enough

[TLW]

Jamie Carragher says that Liverpool received a brutal reality check in terms of their current level as they were thrashed 5-2 by Real Madrid in the first leg of their Round-of-16 clash on Tuesday evening.

 

It has been a challenging start to 2023 in terms of form, but the Reds seemed to be emerging from the fog with two league wins in succession, and just as importantly two clean sheets to go along with it.

 

There is nothing quite like a big European night at Anfield to get the juices flowing and it doesn’t come bigger than playing the ‘grandmasters’ of this competition in the Spanish outfit.

 

Madrid came into this fixture with the wood over the Reds in this competition including two victories in the final in recent seasons, but it had been somewhat of a frustration for fans that Liverpool had not played them at a full capacity Anfield during the Jurgen Klopp era, with the only meeting coming when empty stadium restrictions were enforced during the pandemic.

 

And if on cue, they made the perfect start with goals to Darwin Nunez and Mo Salah before being pegged back to 2-2 at half time.

 

After the long break, it become a truly chastening experience for anyone associated with the club as the defensive frailties and general sloppiness which had typified this campaign came to the fore and the last team that you want to have control of the contest is the reigning holders of this competition.

 

As with any result of significance, there are plenty of opinions in the aftermath and Carragher was at the forefront not holding back as the Mirror (via CBS) reported.

 

 "It was nonsense, absolute nonsense that Liverpool were back after the last two games,"

 

"And that's why I was cautious before the game. They played against an Everton team, one of the worst performances I've seen in a derby game from an Everton team who did nothing.

 

"I was at the Newcastle game as well. Newcastle had 10 men and created chances. If Newcastle had had 11 men all game, they'd have got back to 2-2, I'm convinced. Liverpool, right now and all season, as I've said before, have been an absolute shambles defensively. Now, this team had a great defensive record last season.

 

 

“But we know the midfield doesn't have the energy anymore, the attacking players - the front three - don't press like or certainly don't have the cohesion that was there before with (Roberto) Firmino and (Sadio) Mane, so they're new to it, (Darwin) Nunez and (Cody) Gakpo.

 

“So, this Liverpool defence now, who for years we've been told have some of the best players in the world, can't cope because for years they've had a front six in front of them who probably worked harder and smarter than any other team in world football, and now that's gone, it's completely fell apart.”

 

Having been around the game for such a long period of time, Carragher understands that things can go wrong during a season and there has been some mitigating circumstances regarding Liverpool’s downfall in this campaign.

 

But what he cannot accept is the same mistakes being made during a match and seemingly how much standards have dropped.

 

“ I keep - I wouldn't say making excuses, it's the wrong word - but because as a Liverpool fan, we absolute adore this manager and his team, and they've done so much for the club in the last four of five years, it hurts to say anything negative because they've give you so much.

 

"But Liverpool are eighth in the Premier League, they've just been battered 5-2 in the Champions League. I know it's Real Madrid but these are the two teams who were in the final last year. It's not acceptable what we're watching this season. We keep looking for reasons and excuses, but no, it's nowhere near good enough.

 

 

“Some of players there... Joe Gomez tonight - listen we've all had bad nights - and maybe I shouldn't kick someone when they're down because I'm sure he'll feel terrible right now. We keep talking about midfield players who Liverpool need and I think that's right, but I think Liverpool need defenders as well because when they get exposed they can't defend."

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[s(k)aturation]

"Nowhere near good enough."

Profound.

[Mudface]

Quote

Madrid came into this fixture with the wood over the Reds in this competition

 

WTF? Dirty bastards.

[KevieG]

I genuinely think Carragher is pissed off VVD said he wouldn't make the squad. 

 

You could have Bobby Moore and Baresi playing that high line with Dads army for protection and you'd see the same. 

[Barrington Womble]

People don't like to talk about it. But I think we have lost a certain amount of desire. It's like we don't want to do the dirty hard work and there just seems to be no appetite in the team to win the ball back. We need a complete rethink of what we do without the ball, because if we're not going to hunt the ball down and pressure teams, we at least need to get a bit mourinho and learn how to dig in and counter. Maybe some of the players are mentally destroyed by coming close yet losing so many times and they just can't fight any more. But we can't just keep giving away goals like we are. Nobody even has to do much to score against us. It's just gift after gift. 

 

Since we've come back from the world cup, that's 23 goals we've conceded in 13 games. And 4 of those games we've managed clean sheets. So in 9 other matches we've lost more than 2 goals per game. You can't win matches when you need to score 3 or 4 times to win. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

What do we do in training. None stop "intensity" so the players get injured or look too fucked to sustain 60 minutes competitive football. 

 

It just feels its takes us forever to learn lessons and then when it clicks we sort things out for a bit and then decide to go back to playing how the opposition really wants us to play. It's obviously not helped by players who are just done.

[House of Dirk]

 

The squad simply needs an overhaul. I say simply, but it runs deeper.  If FSG have committed like they say they have in terms of sticking around, investment is required this summer. No getting around that, regardless of any other party coming in with any other funding. We tend to spend well when we do (Diaz and Jota, and I think Nunez and Gapko will ultimately prove so), but leaving key areas criminally under resourced (midfield, I am looking at you) is going to bite harder as it will cost more and there hasnt been gradual backing up and improving over the last few years. We have all said our piece over this time and again and I appreciate I am not adding anything new, but with Newcastle and now possibly the Scum potentially in positions to upgrade, we need to be equipped to deal.

 

The fatigue amongst the place is going to take some shifting.  The place needs to be lifted.

[johnsusername]

3 minutes ago, House of Dirk said:

 

The squad simply needs an overhaul. I say simply, but it runs deeper.  If FSG have committed like they say they have in terms of sticking around, investment is required this summer. No getting around that, regardless of any other party coming in with any other funding. We tend to spend well when we do (Diaz and Jota, and I think Nunez and Gapko will ultimately prove so), but leaving key areas criminally under resourced (midfield, I am looking at you) is going to bite harder as it will cost more and there hasnt been gradual backing up and improving over the last few years. We have all said our piece over this time and again and I appreciate I am not adding anything new, but with Newcastle and now possibly the Scum potentially in positions to upgrade, we need to be equipped to deal.

 

The fatigue amongst the place is going to take some shifting.  The place needs to be lifted.

 

Good signings will lift the place. But will we see them in the summer?

 

Even the bench - we used to have Shaqiri, Origi, Minamino - talented players who could make an impact. Now it's Curtis Jones, Carvalho and Chamberlain. 

[LFC 6 Times]

Carra played in his fair share of dreadful Liverpool sides. He’s also coming across very petty here.

[Welsh]

Carragher is such a muppet. Gone from being one of my favourite players to someone I can't follow or listen too.

 

He's bordering the bitterness of Didi Hamman these days.

[Kevin D]

Bad bootle meff.

[Baltar]

Agree with Carra. His comment about VVD last night was pretty weird though, there's definitely needle between the two. I'm sure VVD was only joking when he said Carra couldn't get into this team, and Carra seems to have taken it literally. 

[s(k)aturation]

 

Ironically, most of his punditry doesn't get within spitting distance of being insightful.

[Section_31]

 

[El Rojo]

1 minute ago, Baltar said:

Agree with Carra. His comment about VVD last night was pretty weird though, there's definitely needle between the two. I'm sure VVD was only joking when he said Carra couldn't get into this team, and Carra seems to have taken it literally. 

 

He'd be even more thick than he sometimes comes across to pit himself against Van Dijk in terms of popularity with fans. Carragher himself didn't even seem like a professional footballer when he was up against Henry or Drogba. 

 

Still, his comments are fair enough. He's right on the midfield and attackers no longer being the first line of defence. 

 

Also agree with @Barrington Womble on the desire thing. Last season's end was soul-destroying for everyone, players included. For whatever reason, they haven't been able to go to the well again.

 

Also, Nunez was only a replacement for Mane, so rather than being freshened up the existing squad was also able to stay in their comfort zones in terms of their starting places being secure, which hasn't helped. 

[gkmacca]

Carragher is on his own footballing Faustian journey. He spends time with Neville and the pathetic Rustie Lee tribute act that is Micah Richards (the two of them were rocking with laughter the other night discussing how much he spends on haircuts, for chrissake!). Once you decide to regard people like that as 'mates' you're basically finished as a sentient human being.

 

As for his punditry, during games it's shrill clickbait; after games it's just mainly the bleedin' obvious. I avoid it like the plague.

 

On Liverpool he's not really any more insightful or constructive than someone complaining that the economy is in a mess. Worse than that, however, he - like most ex-pros - can be insultingly cynical, because it's one thing speaking like a fan who doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes, but it's deeply dishonest as an ex-pro to pretend that it's all very simple and money is available with no strings attached and all is required is for a manager to go out, get x, y and z and revive the team. Talking like a random fan is his biggest failing. It's like reading some tweets from some disaffected teenaged supporter in Oswestry after a game.

[Barrington Womble]

31 minutes ago, El Rojo said:

 

He'd be even more thick than he sometimes comes across to pit himself against Van Dijk in terms of popularity with fans. Carragher himself didn't even seem like a professional footballer when he was up against Henry or Drogba. 

 

Still, his comments are fair enough. He's right on the midfield and attackers no longer being the first line of defence. 

 

Also agree with @Barrington Womble on the desire thing. Last season's end was soul-destroying for everyone, players included. For whatever reason, they haven't been able to go to the well again.

 

Also, Nunez was only a replacement for Mane, so rather than being freshened up the existing squad was also able to stay in their comfort zones in terms of their starting places being secure, which hasn't helped. 

Yeah, carragher isn't going win any popularity contest against VVD. But we have to remember these lads are paid handsomely to keep their mouths moving and keep raising the profile of their employers and generate discussion, even if this discussion is cheap. When you have to talk as much as carragher does, you're undoubtedly going to piss people off along the way. Carragher has said some stupid stuff since he's been at sky and even moreso since they didn't sack him. I suspect he'll say plenty more stuff to piss people off too, especially if our form stays like this. If we want carragher to shut the fuck up, stop getting dicked. 

 

I don't see Nunez as mane's replacement. I see that as Diaz, we always planned for Diaz in the summer till our hand was forced by spurs. I think it's clear from what mane and klopp have said since, they knew he was off way before we knew. I see Nunez along with carvalho as replacements for Divi and minamino. I think it's pretty fair to say Nunez is offering more than either of them, carvalho is about the same. The bit that has hurt us is Jota and Diaz barely playing all season, so were forced to playing player out of form.

 

We've added gakpo too, although at this point I suspect he's bobby's replacement. 

 

 

[gkmacca]

The sad thing about ex-pros like Carra is that they COULD be really enlightening by giving you a sense of how players actually feel in certain situations, especially tough ones, but they never do, because, presumably, they fear it would diminish their own image to reveal such vulnerabilities.

 

For example: Carra himself was obviously a fine defender, but there were times, when the team was struggling, when he'd get the ball at the back, pass it across back and forth without ever seeming interested in looking for a pass forward, then he'd give it to whicever poor sod was at RB or LB and point very dramatically up field, as if to say, 'Go on then - DO something!'. And if the player didn't find a teammate he'd be slaughtered by Carra. To me as an outsider it seemed as though that was some kind of weird transference of fear.

 

But trying to explain, say, why Gomez is in meltdown, and the impact it has on those around him, or what Virge might be trying to do to control the back four - that would be interesting, because he'd actually be sharing some real experience and insight. But no, he just shakes his head about Gomez and makes the odd snide remark about Virgil. As I said, he's paid to behave like an ex-pro but what he does, like all the others, is act like a random gobby fan.

[VladimirIlyich]

19 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yeah, carragher isn't going win any popularity contest against VVD. But we have to remember these lads are paid handsomely to keep their mouths moving and keep raising the profile of their employers and generate discussion, even if this discussion is cheap. When you have to talk as much as carragher does, you're undoubtedly going to piss people off along the way. Carragher has said some stupid stuff since he's been at sky and even moreso since they didn't sack him. I suspect he'll say plenty more stuff to piss people off too, especially if our form stays like this. If we want carragher to shut the fuck up, stop getting dicked. 

 

I don't see Nunez as mane's replacement. I see that as Diaz, we always planned for Diaz in the summer till our hand was forced by spurs. I think it's clear from what mane and klopp have said since, they knew he was off way before we knew. I see Nunez along with carvalho as replacements for Divi and minamino. I think it's pretty fair to say Nunez is offering more than either of them, carvalho is about the same. The bit that has hurt us is Jota and Diaz barely playing all season, so were forced to playing player out of form.

 

We've added gakpo too, although at this point I suspect he's bobby's replacement. 

 

 

Our main man at the back is now Konate,frequently injured! Thiago is technically our best midfielder,again frequently injured. Diaz and Jota have both been injured for long periods since signing. There is a sneaking suspicion that we got these lads due to those injuries being a factor in their affordability? Either that, the medical department is a shambles and cant manage fitness at all or Klopp's training regime is unattainable for them? Or a bit of all three?

[House of Dirk]

1 hour ago, johnsusername said:

 

Good signings will lift the place. But will we see them in the summer?

 

Even the bench - we used to have Shaqiri, Origi, Minamino - talented players who could make an impact. Now it's Curtis Jones, Carvalho and Chamberlain. 

 

We simply have to, if we want to be competing or even in the mix of things. 

[gkmacca]

14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

But we have to remember these lads are paid handsomely to keep their mouths moving and keep raising the profile of their employers and generate discussion, even if this discussion is cheap.

 

They really don't, though. The outstanding thing about Hansen as a pundit was that he'd think and then deliver a line or two that made his point so authoritatively that either others would have to engage with it or move on. Souness, on a good day, is similar - he doesn't chatter and chatter away, he'll wait his moment, compose his thoughts and make his point concisely and sit back. 

 

It's the lazy ones who just assume they need to fill the air with sounds. I guess you can just spew out stuff like Carra and others do if your thoughts are really racing, but I doubt they are. He's usually just running on autopilot, like some weird Pavlovian chatbot. They're still, in their heads, lads, and lads often have this macho idea that it is a bit effete to listen and think and then respond - you've got to keep your mouth yapping all the time. That helps no one.

[Megadrive Man]

The team that won the Champions League in 2019 and League in 2020 was as close to perfect as you're ever likely to see a team.

 

Not necessarily the greatest players of all time, but the perfect eleven, at the right age to execute the way we wanted to play.

 

Now though we are seeing mostly the same players, older, slower and lacking the desire, fitness and durability to play the way we were in 19/20.

 

The handful of new players that have come in are inferior to the players they are replacing and whilst they may get to a very high level, its too soon to say if they can become world class players. 

 

We need a major major reset in the summer, are we likely to be in a position to do that under FSG though?

 

I think its very unlikely.   

[skend04]

Carra the pundit is an absolute whopper. He makes some matches almost unwatchable, the Newcastle game is a case in point. The snipe back at VVD is petty point scoring, absolutely ridiculous. But the headline point is also correct, this season hasn't been good enough and that's the whole club though, not just players but from the owners down. You should never go from our last 4-5 seasons to what we're currently witnessing, in the matter of a few months. A complete dereliction of duty from the owners, from Klopp and from some of the players 

[Dave D]

Carragher is a walking cliche machine. As most of them are. Getting into verbals with VVD is brilliant viewing for all our rivals- look at the bloody state of us 

 

 

Klopp seems to be retreating into his shell, his passion used to be tangible. He's only human, and his demeanour is reflective in the players- all look exhausted and washed out after coming so close to a clean sweep, the fires gones out. (To make it even worse, these same players should have 3 or 4 more medals as they were up against cheats)   

 

I want him to dig at the owners a bit and question the players a bit more but I guess that just leads to more strife             

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Our main man at the back is now Konate,frequently injured! Thiago is technically our best midfielder,again frequently injured. Diaz and Jota have both been injured for long periods since signing. There is a sneaking suspicion that we got these lads due to those injuries being a factor in their affordability? Either that, the medical department is a shambles and cant manage fitness at all or Klopp's training regime is unattainable for them? Or a bit of all three?

Well konate & thiago have never played often, it might not be why we got them, but it might have meant why others weren't in for them or they weren't more expensive. 

 

The other 2.... I dunno enough about in their history, but it does feel with both we've managed it badly. Jota has had issues he's not recovered properly from since the summer. Diaz a recurrence injury. As has been discussed in the emergency ward 10 thread, there has to be question marks on our medical team and assesments. 

 

1 hour ago, gkmacca said:

 

They really don't, though. The outstanding thing about Hansen as a pundit was that he'd think and then deliver a line or two that made his point so authoritatively that either others would have to engage with it or move on. Souness, on a good day, is similar - he doesn't chatter and chatter away, he'll wait his moment, compose his thoughts and make his point concisely and sit back. 

 

It's the lazy ones who just assume they need to fill the air with sounds. I guess you can just spew out stuff like Carra and others do if your thoughts are really racing, but I doubt they are. He's usually just running on autopilot, like some weird Pavlovian chatbot. They're still, in their heads, lads, and lads often have this macho idea that it is a bit effete to listen and think and then respond - you've got to keep your mouth yapping all the time. That helps no one.

Hansen is from another time & another channel. He was also mostly just paid for short sound bites on motd. Carra has much more time to fill airwaves. And he works for a company who want him to be controversial. 

 

I think souness has a slightly different role to carragher (and is on less), but I agree he handles it better. But both carragher and Neville are the face of sky. As fans we expect them to be competent pundits. But I think sky see them as high profile noise machines. They can both talk a lot of sense when they want, but mostly spout shit because they're as much part of the marketing machine as they are the "talent".