Russia v Ukraine

[Rico1304]

7 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

And that doesn't sound authoritarian at all, honest.

 

"Yes, but..." better known as "whataboutism" is often pointing out hypocrisy. "Apologist" and other related insults are often used to try and shut down discussion of it.

You’re right, it doesn’t sound authoritarian at all. I’m not tell you what to say, I’m telling how you’d sound if you weren’t an apologist. There’s a big difference but you can’t see it.  

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

Let say there is a huge domestic political pressure on Biden, or he gets sick so on the VP and the WHdecides to stop helping Ukraine militarily and financially and sanctions are quickly watered down or quietly relaxed, what do you think happens? What is the scenario with UKR-Russia you envisage?

 

Ukraine would be left in a lot worse negotiating position I'd guess after losing their most powerful ally and could end up with a peace deal that's a lot worse for Ukrainians if they manage it. That's why I think the US should help both sides find a better result in negotiations instead of mainly focusing on sanctions and shipping in weapons.

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

You’re right, it doesn’t sound authoritarian at all. I’m not tell you what to say, I’m telling how you’d sound if you weren’t an apologist. There’s a big difference but you can’t see it.  

 

I'm telling you that I'm not an apologist and you can't see that. You're not alone in the thread with this issue either.

 

Calling out the US/UK gov with their sanctions and ship more weapons in approach isn't being a Russia apologist. It's being critical of the US/UK gov in how they're handling this. Being an actual Russia apologist is defending their actions, I'm not doing that.

[SasaS]

27 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Ukraine would be left in a lot worse negotiating position I'd guess after losing their most powerful ally and could end up with a peace deal that's a lot worse for Ukrainians if they manage it. That's why I think the US should help both sides find a better result in negotiations instead of mainly focusing on sanctions and shipping in weapons.

And how would they do that? How would they "help" Russia to be more flexible?

[TheHowieLama]

@Red Phoenix

Should Ukraine surrender any land that is inside their pre invasion borders to accomplish this ceasefire?

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, SasaS said:

And how would they do that? How would they "help" Russia to be more flexible?

I already asked. He said it's for them to work out, not a guy on a football forum. So it's basically magic fairy wishes. 

[Red Phoenix]

11 minutes ago, SasaS said:

And how would they do that? How would they "help" Russia to be more flexible?

 

7 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Red Phoenix

Should Ukraine surrender any land that is inside their pre invasion borders to accomplish this ceasefire?

 

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I already asked. He said it's for them to work out, not a guy on a football forum. So it's basically magic fairy wishes. 

 

Still agreed with the last quote. The US, Ukrainian, Russian and any other govs helping know way more about what's going on than we do. You'd think that if they at least got together and tried to arrange a peace deal we might get a bit closer to something being worked out.

[TheHowieLama]

9 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Red Phoenix

Should Ukraine surrender any land that is inside their pre invasion borders to accomplish this ceasefire?

@Red PhoenixWhat you just posted has nothing to do with the above question.

 

Yes/no and if yes what area/areas?

[Red Shift]

8 hours ago, cochyn said:

Arch contrarian quotes marginalised lone voice shilling for a contrarian opinion outlet churning out click bait for ‘truthists’.

 

Have I got that right?

One day, when the dust has settled and the fog of war is removed, we’ll all know what happened. Until then, few if any, have a grasp of the truth of this conflict. Differing opinions are what make up this world, communicated by language. 
 

I’m rather pleased that I avoided the use of the letter ‘Z’ in the above paragraph - trying to pre-empt the next censorship level.

[Red Phoenix]

16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Red PhoenixWhat you just posted has nothing to do with the above question.

 

Yes/no and if yes what area/areas?

 

I don't really know because you have to think of the long term consequences.

 

It's ok saying that Crimea and Donbas should be independent but that leaves Ukraine with potentially more risk of further wars in the future between both sides. There's obviously a lot of people in Donbas and Crimea that have ties with Russia and feel closer to Russia. That shouldn't be automatically seen as a bad thing just because of Putin and what he's done because Russia is next door to them, they have a long history.

 

So maybe in the long term to help heal divisions it'd be better if the country wasn't divided and both groups of people, those more aligned with the west and those more aligned with the east, could find some peaceful way of living together. Ukraine losing Donbas and Crimea doesn't help that I don't think unless there's some peace deal that works really well for both sides.

 

So I honestly don't know what the best option is.

[Rico1304]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Ukraine would be left in a lot worse negotiating position I'd guess after losing their most powerful ally and could end up with a peace deal that's a lot worse for Ukrainians if they manage it. That's why I think the US should help both sides find a better result in negotiations instead of mainly focusing on sanctions and shipping in weapons.

Both sides. 

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

There's obviously a lot of people in Donbas and Crimea that have ties with Russia and feel closer to Russia.

Ukraine has proposed a public referendum on these, not an outright annexation - what do you think?

[Captain Howdy]

4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Both sides. 

Pure gaslighting. Nasty piece of work 

[Rico1304]

Look, I know your neighbour burned down your 4 bed house because he didn’t like the wallpaper but I think the fairest way to get it resolved would be for you rebuild a bungalow on a smaller plot and promise never to fit a smoke alarm or call the fire brigade. Fair for both sides.  

[Red Shift]

6 hours ago, SasaS said:

I am frequently amazed by expectations that there would be fully protected civilians in a war or that nobody would be shooting at a hospital, or from a hospital. Nobody ever deliberately bombs hospitals, churches, schools and day care centres, you either bomb randomly or you bomb everything including hospitals or there is activity from the vicinity of such places.

 

Conversely, when you defend a city, you fire from civilian objects. Schools are particularly great, often easier to defend and frequently come with reinforced shelters ideal to store your ammunitions supplies. You use every advantage there is.

Of course, you are right.

 

If I’m not mistaken, the Ukrainian armed forces have actually fired weapons ‘over the border’ into Russia, and the reaction seems strange to me since it is ‘war’. I’m not for a moment suggesting that those weapons were targeting civilians per se, but I’ll wager there were some civilian deaths, if deaths have been reported.

 

looking back at WW1 & WW2, there was an exception in my eyes, to the general rule of refraining from deliberate targeting of civilians, and it was the Battle Of The Atlantic. I mention WW1 because the U-boat saw action, but in the so called ‘happy times’ of 1939-40, when Britain had no convoy system developed, German U-Boats deliberately targeted merchant shipping and the merchant sailors that sailed in them.

[SasaS]

6 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

Of course, you are right.

 

If I’m not mistaken, the Ukrainian armed forces have actually fired weapons ‘over the border’ into Russia, and the reaction seems strange to me since it is ‘war’. I’m not for a moment suggesting that those weapons were targeting civilians per se, but I’ll wager there were some civilian deaths, if deaths have been reported.

 

looking back at WW1 & WW2, there was an exception in my eyes, to the general rule of refraining from deliberate targeting of civilians, and it was the Battle Of The Atlantic. I mention WW1 because the U-boat saw action, but in the so called ‘happy times’ of 1939-40, when Britain had no convoy system developed, German U-Boats deliberately targeted merchant shipping and the merchant sailors that sailed in them.

You think civilians were not deliberately targeted in WWII or WWI?

[TheHowieLama]

39 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Ukraine has proposed a public referendum on these, not an outright annexation - what do you think?

@Red Phoenix Seems more democratic to have them vote.

 

Also I asked Shifty the other day - where have all the Nazis in Ukraine gone as Putin has dropped the "de nazification of Ukraine" from negotiations. Doesn't seem that important anymore - what happened?

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Red Phoenix Seems more democratic to have them vote.

 

Also I asked Shifty the other day - where have all the Nazis in Ukraine gone as Putin has dropped the "de nazification of Ukraine" from negotiations. Doesn't seem that important anymore - what happened?

Killed ‘em wiv bombs mate xxx

[Red Phoenix]

44 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Both sides. 

 

Yep, when you arrange a peace deal between two sides it requires both sides to be done.

 

44 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Ukraine has proposed a public referendum on these, not an outright annexation - what do you think?

 

Seems like one of the best ideas if it's done fairly.

 

38 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Pure gaslighting. Nasty piece of work 

 

You're just anti-East.

[SasaS]

Defensionem situation update

 

https://www.facebook.com/defensionem/posts/4885856418128120
 

That map actually looks better than I feared. Anybody else following Mariupol closely? A number of things I still don't quite get.

 

 

 

[Red Shift]

3 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

You’re struggling to contain your delight aren’t you

Delight? Jesus wept. Definitely not. I have no idea how this war is progressing, but regardless of what their spin is, some X military and defence jocks may just have access to information that most don’t have. So far, all Ive been getting from ‘standard’ news is a ‘refugee crisis’ which is obvious, and doesn’t tell the state of battle, and ‘how useless the Russian armed forces are’ which I simply do not believe.

 

I’ll say this though - the longer this war goes on, the more carnage there will be. The more resistance the Ukraine is capable of, unless they can quickly overcome Russia, which I very much doubt, the longer the hell that the Ukraine people have to live through.  
 

I wish like nothing else that in 2014 (and maybe even further back) a non violent way could have been found to satisfy all Ukrainians and bring the country together. Ukraine is split right down the middle with language and religion. You cannot ban a language which half the country speaks and expect peace. Maybe referendums in the Donbas Luhansk regions would have helped sort it out; I don’t know, but violence always begets violence, and one action is simply a reaction to the previous action and so on.

 

Doesn’t anybody else want the war over asap? If a cease fire cannot be negotiated, it is better that one of these sides loses quickly with minimal human suffering. Will that be Russia? You tell me.

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

Delight? Jesus wept. Definitely not. I have no idea how this war is progressing, but regardless of what their spin is, some X military and defence jocks may just have access to information that most don’t have. So far, all Ive been getting from ‘standard’ news is a ‘refugee crisis’ which is obvious, and doesn’t tell the state of battle, and ‘how useless the Russian armed forces are’ which I simply do not believe.

 

I’ll say this though - the longer this war goes on, the more carnage there will be. The more resistance the Ukraine is capable of, unless they can quickly overcome Russia, which I very much doubt, the longer the hell that the Ukraine people have to live through.  
 

I wish like nothing else that in 2014 (and maybe even further back) a non violent way could have been found to satisfy all Ukrainians and bring the country together. Ukraine is split right down the middle with language and religion. You cannot ban a language which half the country speaks and expect peace. Maybe referendums in the Donbas Luhansk regions would have helped sort it out; I don’t know, but violence always begets violence, and one action is simply a reaction to the previous action and so on.

 

Doesn’t anybody else want the war over asap? If a cease fire cannot be negotiated, it is better that one of these sides loses quickly with minimal human suffering. Will that be Russia? You tell me.

Look, love, if you just behaved I wouldn’t have to hit you.  You made me do it. 
 

It’s horrific really. Proper cunt behaviour. 

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

Delight? Jesus wept. Definitely not. I have no idea how this war is progressing, but regardless of what their spin is, some X military and defence jocks may just have access to information that most don’t have. So far, all Ive been getting from ‘standard’ news is a ‘refugee crisis’ which is obvious, and doesn’t tell the state of battle, and ‘how useless the Russian armed forces are’ which I simply do not believe.

 

I’ll say this though - the longer this war goes on, the more carnage there will be. The more resistance the Ukraine is capable of, unless they can quickly overcome Russia, which I very much doubt, the longer the hell that the Ukraine people have to live through.  
 

I wish like nothing else that in 2014 (and maybe even further back) a non violent way could have been found to satisfy all Ukrainians and bring the country together. Ukraine is split right down the middle with language and religion. You cannot ban a language which half the country speaks and expect peace. Maybe referendums in the Donbas Luhansk regions would have helped sort it out; I don’t know, but violence always begets violence, and one action is simply a reaction to the previous action and so on.

 

Doesn’t anybody else want the war over asap? If a cease fire cannot be negotiated, it is better that one of these sides loses quickly with minimal human suffering. Will that be Russia? You tell me.

 

You think that a good way to end an invasion is for the invaded country to lose and that would then bring peace? As in, everybody would just go home, including Russia?

[SasaS]

This should be on the driving test.

 

 

[Red Shift]

58 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Look, love, if you just behaved I wouldn’t have to hit you.  You made me do it. 
 

It’s horrific really. Proper cunt behaviour. 

Isn’t that what Yatsenyuk said to the injured peaceful protestors of South East Ukraine in April 2014 as they mourned their dead?