Keir Starmer

[Babb'sBurstNad]

"Fascist" and "misogynist" are terms fast being stripped of their potency due to overuse and misapplication. 

 

Edit: Yay, top of the page! Fuck all you fascists.

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I hope the Labour party never gets to the stage that it keeps quiet about the IDF shooting children, to win a few votes, whether Starmer would like the members to or not.

 

How can you say something like that with a straight face? I mean, clearly nobody is asking anybody to keep quiet about IDF shooting children to win a few votes. It’s about calling Israel fascist when doing so in parliament when you’re part of a party which has just been through an antisemitism crisis and… 

 

You know what. You’re right. I hope all Labour politicians get up, say ‘fuck the Jews’ and burn the Star of David, making them entirely unelectable. Mean, if we’re making shit up we might as well go the whole hog and make the debate entirely ridiculous. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

 

 

I'm no fan of Israeli government's in general, much less the new one formed by that loathsome toad Netanyahu and his even worse coalition partners. And I've said this on here. But would I, in the House of Common, speaking as an elected representative, as a Labour MP, in the wake of years of claims and smears about anti-Semitism that are still engulfing my party, call a Jewish state out as 'fascist', with all the obvious connotations that word has? I like to think I'd have a bit more sense.

 

And fair play to her, she apologised. Although perhaps you'd say she was told to by the whips, which would make her an insincere coward.

Like the song says, "Fascist is as Fascist does".  Fascist isn't a synonym for Nazi.  There are different "flavours" of Fascism and there's a strong argument that the current Israeli government fits the bill.  The fact that she's been made to apologise is an affront to free speech and democracy.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

It’s perfectly fine to criticise the leaders of the Islamic Republic of Iran. They’re bad, murderous shites. And you can use all sorts of descriptive terms when partaking in this criticism. And, correctly, the criticism of a small group of barbaric scumbags who lead that country very rarely, if ever, lead to accusations of anti-Muslim/Islamophobic sentiments. 
 

But, it’s quite interesting to see that when the same targeted, specific criticism of the leaders in Israel happens, some people will instantly jump to slandering those making these comments as being antisemitic etc. It’s all quite silly and will inevitably lead to a boy who cried wolf response to claims of genuine antisemitism. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Fascist isn’t a synonym for Nazi. That’s true, but Nazis are the first thing that comes to mind when talking about fascism and they’re the prime, most widely known form and example of it. Again, even if it’s accurate I’m not sure why you’d use it given the issues the party has had. It’s genuinely like we like walking into these traps. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Fascist isn’t a synonym for Nazi. That’s true, but Nazis are the first thing that comes to mind when talking about fascism and they’re the prime, most widely known form and example of it. Again, even if it’s accurate I’m not sure why you’d use it given the issues the party has had. It’s genuinely like we like walking into these traps. 

 

The same can be said for criticism of Israel without using the term facism. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/2022-10-31/ty-article/.premium/european-jewish-student-union-warns-against-fascist-ben-gvir-ahead-of-israel-election/00000184-2ef0-db86-a394-aef484f90000

[Gnasher]

NV just pumps out the party line.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I thought that that “criticising capitalism is antisemitic” thing was one of the silliest things I’d heard. But, this new “calling fascists fascist is antisemitic” is definitely in the running too. 

[A Red]

As someone who doesn't support a party and will happily vote for who suits me at the time, doesn't spend much time thinking about Palestine, thatcher, racism or fascism , doesn't base whether they like someone dependent upon who they vote for, fuck me but Labour make themselves difficult to like.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

NV just pumps out the party line.

 

The party line is that Israel is an evil regime? News to me. Of course, you could be completely making it up, which would be news to absolutely nobody. 

[Gnasher]

Seems Kim's in a spot of bother.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

The party line is that Israel is an evil regime? News to me. Of course, you could be completely making it up, which would be news to absolutely nobody. 

See no evil, speak no evil.

[Numero Veinticinco]

The deliberately obtuse nature of this is particularly difficult to take. 

[Arniepie]

12 minutes ago, A Red said:

As someone who doesn't support a party and will happily vote for who suits me at the time, doesn't spend much time thinking about Palestine, thatcher, racism or fascism , doesn't base whether they like someone dependent upon who they vote for, fuck me but Labour make themselves difficult to like.

Yep calling out mass murderers will do that 

[Arniepie]

58 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Well, fascism as a political ideology has several key defining factors. Although Israel has one or two matching characteristics, and it certainly acts in disgusting and despicable ways, especially when it comes to militarism and use of violence, there are others where it just doesn’t match with racism, so it would not be accurate to call Israel a fascist state in my estimation. 
 

And to be honest, whether or not it’s correct and accurate isn’t the point. It’s clearly politically naive to keep doing this. Is it morally right to speak out, absolutely, is it sensible to use inflammatory language that you know will get portrayed as antisemitic whilst doing so… I’d argue not. There are few countries governments that I despise more than Israel, but this isn’t the way to make change in a system like ours. We can’t sit naively by and worry about what should be, we have to be concerned about what is. In my opinion anyway. 

I can see where you are coming from and there is an argument to say all she has done is put a big target on her back but when is an appropriate time to address the elephant in the room?

Could she have worded it differently?

Certainly,but there is definitely the impression that they are treated as a special case.

Going off tangent I'd say that would probably apply to the likes of Saudi aswell tbf.

I just think even a few years down on the line any criticism of Israel by Labour will be met with the usual 'plagued by anti semitic 'shouts.

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Arniepie said:

Yep calling out mass murderers will do that 

Why does the Labour party and some of its supporters spend so much time on one particular set of mass murderers compared to others? Why will you see 10 x the amount of Palestinian flags at some Labour supporting gatherings compared to the victims of other mass murder victims. What makes Palestinians a special case? 

[Bjornebye]

12 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I can see where you are coming from and there is an argument to say all she has done is put a big target on her back but when is an appropriate time to address the elephant in the room?

Could she have worded it differently?

Certainly,but there is definitely the impression that they are treated as a special case.

Going off tangent I'd say that would probably apply to the likes of Saudi aswell tbf.

I just think even a few years down on the line any criticism of Israel by Labour will be met with the usual 'plagued by anti semitic 'shouts.

 

Let's just hope she's not a small child playing footy on a beach with her friends anytime soon, or safely walking away unarmed or wearing a journalist bullet-proof jacket. 

[Bjornebye]

15 minutes ago, A Red said:

Why does the Labour party and some of its supporters spend so much time on one particular set of mass murderers compared to others? Why will you see 10 x the amount of Palestinian flags at some Labour supporting gatherings compared to the victims of other mass murder victims. What makes Palestinians a special case? 

 

Because it's the one set of atrocities wildly ignored by the western media, in-particular western governments. The anti-semitic agenda you think is there, isn't. It's a deflection tactic from the reality of what is happening. 

 

Corbyn mentions the innocent Yemenese who are murdered and de-housed regularly. Why doesn't he get called out by the right wing press for that?....... Hmm.... 

 

But, you neg away as usual when presented with reality. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Right Wing.... 

[Bjornebye]

Like I said, right wing. 

[Bjornebye]

Like I said, Right Wing. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

18 minutes ago, A Red said:

Why does the Labour party and some of its supporters spend so much time on one particular set of mass murderers compared to others? Why will you see 10 x the amount of Palestinian flags at some Labour supporting gatherings compared to the victims of other mass murder victims. What makes Palestinians a special case? 

Maybe because it’s not just about the body count? Maybe because it’s been going on since the 1940s? Maybe because there are still breaches of international law and land grabs being committed, all with very little accountability? Maybe because of people being forced to live in what many have described as an “open air prison” where most aspects of daily life are controlled, with a permit needed for this and that, restricted movement, checkpoints etc? Maybe because a lot of these other murderous states are held to account for their actions, whereas Israeli state murder is often committed with the tacit or express approval of the US/UK/western governments? Maybe it’s the apartheid measures applied, be they in freedom of movement, access to healthcare, the administration of justice, statehood etc? Maybe it’s the Israeli governments historic and contemporary disregard for the rule of law and their preference for extrajudicial executions both in Israel and other countries instead? Or maybe it’s the Nakba, the Deir Yassin massacre or acquiescence during the Sabra and Shatila massacres? 
 

Or, maybe, particularly if you’re a bit of an ignoramus of all of the above things, it’s because of “tHe jEwS!”

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Nelly-Matip said:

Maybe because it’s not just about the body count? Maybe because it’s been going on since the 1940s? Maybe because there are still breaches of international law and land grabs being committed, all with very little accountability? Maybe because of people being forced to live in what many have described as an “open air prison” where most aspects of daily life are controlled, with a permit needed for this and that, restricted movement, checkpoints etc? Maybe because a lot of these other murderous states are held to account for their actions, whereas Israeli state murder is often committed with the tacit or express approval of the US/UK/western governments? Maybe it’s the apartheid measures applied, be they in freedom of movement, access to healthcare, the administration of justice, statehood etc? Maybe it’s the Israeli governments historic and contemporary disregard for the rule of law and their preference for extrajudicial executions both in Israel and other countries instead? Or maybe it’s the Nakba, the Deir Yassin massacre or acquiescence during the Sabra and Shatila massacres? 
 

Or, maybe, particularly if you’re a bit of an ignoramus of all of the above things, it’s because of “tHe jEwS!”

I don't think its anti Semitism

 

 

Do you consider Israel the worst regime in the world?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

3 minutes ago, A Red said:

I don't think its anti Semitism

 

 

Do you consider Israel the worst regime in the world?

I’ve never made a list.

 

But, for the factors listed, it’s a contender. 

[A Red]

Just now, Nelly-Matip said:

I’ve never made a list.

 

But, for the factors listed, it’s a contender. 

You know where I'm going to go with this don't you? 

 

So why all the effort about Palestine from you, Labour supporters and the party compared to the other contenders? Yeah I know others have been mentioned and called out, why is it way, way fucking way more for Israel. Human beings are being killed and treated like animals all over the world, why are Palestinians more deserving human beings for your concern?

[Numero Veinticinco]

The simple fact is that it is a very important geopolitical situation that marks it out as a special interest for politically minded folk, and there are utterly horrific crimes being inflicted on the Palestinians. There's a dreadful sense of injustice there, and left wing people tend to be higher in empathy in my experience. Trying to make it a league table of concern is, well, a little belittling. There's a small part of the Labour party and Labour members who give it more interest than others (who says anybody has to take equal interest, anyway?). Others, however, are concerned about many issues. It's certainly not a Labour thing, it's the left in general who seem to care about the plight of the Palestinians. I guess the same thing could be asked the other way around, why do you think hawkish, right wing types are so interested in Israel? It's not because the heartfelt love for Jews, I'll tell you that much. 

 

As for the question, 'is it the worst regime in the world', the answer is no. I have made it clear on here several times that I think that's Saudi Arabia, but Israel certainly commits some of the worst acts a regime can undertake though.