VAR shit show 19/20

[Guest Pistonbroke]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Why do these refs never go and look at the screen themselves in this country? 

 

I'm sure I saw the camera pan to one of those screens during one of the games recently, I also thought they had introduced that. Maybe's they only use it when those in the studio can't come to a majority conclusion and the ref then has the casting vote so to speak. 

[Moo]

5 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Why do these refs never go and look at the screen themselves in this country? 

I've not seen an explanation, but I don't understand why that's such a big deal to people? Personally I prefer that it's someone "objective" who's carrying out the review and feel that tweaks to the rules will help more than the on pitch referee reviewing his own decision. I don't trust bent, incompetent or ego driven referees to do the right thing even when presented with clear evidence. 

[VladimirIlyich]

4 minutes ago, Moo said:

I've not seen an explanation, but I don't understand why that's such a big deal to people? Personally I prefer that it's someone "objective" who's carrying out the review and feel that tweaks to the rules will help more than the on pitch referee reviewing his own decision. I don't trust bent, incompetent or ego driven referees to do the right thing even when presented with clear evidence. 

But the people in the VAR booth are just the same incompetents who ref every week,who may have their own agendas. VAR doesn't rid any of that.

[Moo]

1 minute ago, VladimirIlyich said:

But the people in the VAR booth are just the same incompetents who ref every week,who may have their own agendas. VAR doesn't rid any of that.

Of course, but they feel more of a safety net than if Anthony Taylor, for example, was checking his own decisions against Liverpool. 

[Mook]

[Mudface]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Surely there has been expert analysis into how accurate the technology is already, right? You know what surprises me, it's the lack of sensors used on the ball and in the player's shirts. The sensors used in smart phones and other devices are fucking tiny. I don't understand why each boot doesn't have a sensor in the toe and/or heel that gives real time, automated feedback to the ref. 

 

I'm sure there has, I meant to publish it so people were aware of how accurate it actually is. When it was first introduced and they started making the close calls, I initially thought it was as accurate as the Hawkeye technology they use for the goal line- looking at what's going on, the blurriness of many of the images and the manual line placement, it obviously isn't.

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, Mudface said:

I'm sure there has, I meant to publish it so people were aware of how accurate it actually is. When it was first introduced and they started making the close calls, I initially thought it was as accurate as the Hawkeye technology they use for the goal line- looking at what's going on, the blurriness of many of the images and the manual line placement, it obviously isn't.

Yeah, and they don't seem to check the actual moment the ball leaves the foot of the passing player either. What's the point in checking armpits vs kneecaps if you're judging from the wrong moment? 

[Mudface]

Just now, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yeah, and they don't seem to check the actual moment the ball leaves the foot of the passing player either. What's the point in checking armpits vs kneecaps if you're judging from the wrong moment? 

Well, as Mook's graphic above points out, they can't determine the actual moment of the pass, the camera's frame rate isn't high enough to capture it. I can't believe they're only using 50 fps cameras, that's nowhere near good enough.

 

Also, I said this earlier in the thread or another one, they seem to be insistent on using this to sub-centimetre margins for offsides, yet they're very relaxed about free kicks or throw ins being taken yards from where they actually should be. For free kicks in particular, moving the ball to get a better angle or distance is far more prevalent than super close offsides.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I don't think there will be an English ref at the next World Cup either if this carries on. Michael Oliver is the standout ref for me.

Who knows what'll happen though, look at the ref FIFA put in charge of CWC final or the all female team for the sake of PR in the Super Cup by UEFA? The authorities are not interested in the officials being competent, I think they're all more than happy to let the refs play a part "of the show". There's no doubt in my mind fans saw the objective of VAR to be something that helped get more key decisions right. The governing bodies see it as something to generate discussion and publicity in the game and add a few more officials to the gravy train and allow some more expenses paid  conferences around the world to discuss each failed implementation. There is nothing to motivate the governing body to do this well and everything to motivate them.to keep doing it badly. It's been like this for years and why we see a constant tinkering with rules for the sake of it. 

[Barrington Womble]

47 minutes ago, Mook said:

This seems to make some of it easier. If there is a 13cm margin for error, make the player be 14cm offside before giving it. I realise in this case it's because sterling was moving at a certain speed, but they should pick the top speed of a a player from the top flight of that league and use it to make the margin of error for that league if it's not possible to calculate this on the fly, but it seems calculating it on the fly should be pretty easy with today's technology. 

[Mudface]

1 minute ago, Barry Wom said:

This seems to make some of it easier. If there is a 13cm margin for error, make the player be 14cm offside before giving it. I realise in this case it's because sterling was moving at a certain speed, but they should pick the top speed of a a player from the top flight of that league and use it to make the margin of error for that league if it's not possible to calculate this on the fly, but it seems calculating it on the fly should be pretty easy with today's technology. 

Nah, all you're doing there is shifting the goalposts a bit- what if it's 13.9 cm offside according to the screenshot, or 14.1? You still can't definitively say the player is offside or not.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

24 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Well, as Mook's graphic above points out, they can't determine the actual moment of the pass, the camera's frame rate isn't high enough to capture it. I can't believe they're only using 50 fps cameras, that's nowhere near good enough.

 

Also, I said this earlier in the thread or another one, they seem to be insistent on using this to sub-centimetre margins for offsides, yet they're very relaxed about free kicks or throw ins being taken yards from where they actually should be. For free kicks in particular, moving the ball to get a better angle or distance is far more prevalent than super close offsides.

What pisses me off above all is the fact a player can be offside and win a corner/free kick that gives them an attacking advantage, but because a goal wasn't scored from the initial offside they don't check it and the corner/free kick stands. 

[Jairzinho]

53 minutes ago, Mook said:

 

 

 

 

[Mudface]

Just now, Pistonbroke said:

What pisses me off above all is the fact a player can be offside and win a corner/free kick that gives them an attacking advantage, but because a goal wasn't scored from the initial offside they don't check it and the corner/free kick stands. 

Yep, hyper-accuracy in one aspect, leniency in another- inconsistency, which was what VAR was supposed to eliminate.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Just now, Mudface said:

Yep, hyper-accuracy in one aspect, leniency in another- inconsistency, which was what VAR was supposed to eliminate.

 

Another one. Linesmen are inconsistent with their flagging of offside, some leave the flag down trusting VAR to intervene whereas others are still flagging. Some players will then stop whereas others will stick the ball into the net in the hope the linesman got his judgement wrong. It won#t be long before a player is booked for it and he's actually following the rules as they stand. 

[Mudface]

Just now, Pistonbroke said:

 

Another one. Linesmen are inconsistent with their flagging of offside, some leave the flag down trusting VAR to intervene whereas others are still flagging. Some players will then stop whereas others will stick the ball into the net in the hope the linesman got his judgement wrong. It won#t be long before a player is booked for it and he's actually following the rules as they stand. 

Taylor was very close to doing something similar last night- if he'd blown his whistle a fraction earlier, then Mane's goal would have been disallowed. The cunt.

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, Mudface said:

Nah, all you're doing there is shifting the goalposts a bit- what if it's 13.9 cm offside according to the screenshot, or 14.1? You still can't definitively say the player is offside or not.

Well you can if you include the margin for error. So in the case we see above, sterling is 2.4cm offside according to the computer. The margin for error is 13cm. So onside. 

 

There will always be a line somewhere. And someone will always be a centimetre the wrong side of it. Like our goal thing at the emptihad last season which was ruled our. But everyone just accepted that. The issue here is people are rightly saying the technology is not fit for purpose. Because they're ruling to the centimetre when the margin of error as we can see is 13cm. So to use your example if someone is 13.9cm offside it's on and 14.1cm is off as it's outside the margin of error. 

[Barrington Womble]

6 minutes ago, Pistonbroke said:

What pisses me off above all is the fact a player can be offside and win a corner/free kick that gives them an attacking advantage, but because a goal wasn't scored from the initial offside they don't check it and the corner/free kick stands. 

Which is why the linesman should always flag. 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

10 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Which is why the linesman should always flag. 

 

All about consistency mate. On clear offsides they should, when it is a close decision they have been told not to, yet many of them do whereas others don't. It just leads to controversy and confusion. If they all officiated like that Sian Massey we'd be fine.  

[Jennings]

2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Why do these refs never go and look at the screen themselves in this country? 

For them ALL to exhibit the same behaviour it must be a taught instruction.

 

OK thanks, but that still doesn't answer 'why'.

Well..The answer to 'why' really needs to be provided by the person giving that instruction - rather than by me.

However I'll speculate...I theorise that it's to allow them to independently back up the referee's decision - regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

 

Why would they want to do that? 

So they don't lose respect for their authority.

To show that they were great all along! See how good we are! 'independent' analysis shows the ref is hardly ever wrong - so fucking respect him!

 

It'll get better when they get a leader with an open mindset. Someone who allows the on-field official to make up his own mind based on the further evidence evidence from the cameras - and backs him by saying stuff like "Hey. Bear with the ref. He'll get some stuff wrong. He isn't perfect and nor is the tech - but we are gonna quickly give him as much evidence as possible, for him to make the best decision he can."

 

A few tweaks to the offside and handball rules wouldn't go amiss too.

 

 

 

[Jenson]

Mike Riley and the PGMOL made the decision for the on-field referee to not look at the pitch side monitors at the start of the season.

[Barrington Womble]

2 hours ago, Pistonbroke said:

 

All about consistency mate. On clear offsides they should, when it is a close decision they have been told not to, yet many of them do whereas others don't. It just leads to controversy and confusion. If they all officiated like that Sian Massey we'd be fine.  

Apparently that's not true about them being told not to. In fact the opposite, they're encouraged to flag, but they expect the ref to remind the players before the game to play to the whistle and not the flag. I don't know why they need to encourage anything, just tell them how to do it and all of them do the same. 

[Megadrive Man]

An article from today explaining how England have massively made a fuck up of implementing VAR. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/30/var-should-only-be-used-for-clear-and-obvious-offside-errors-say-law-makers

[Ne Moe Imya]

Anyone talking about how "VAR can never be definitive" has missed the point.

 

It was never meant to be "definitive," obviously that's impossible. The only thing VAR has to do is be better than the previous system.

 

I really feel most of the complaints this season have been a case of the grass always being greener on the other side of the fence. We have forgotten how awful it was to be absolutely robbed of a win by a terrible lino missing an obvious offside call. So we get upset about them possibly getting it wrong over a one-inch call instead.

 

Do we really want to return to the days when players were being called off by mistake when they were two yards on? Because that used to happen REGULARLY in past seasons!

[Mook]

16 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

Anyone talking about how "VAR can never be definitive" has missed the point.

 

It was never meant to be "definitive," obviously that's impossible. The only thing VAR has to do is be better than the previous system.

 

I really feel most of the complaints this season have been a case of the grass always being greener on the other side of the fence. We have forgotten how awful it was to be absolutely robbed of a win by a terrible lino missing an obvious offside call. So we get upset about them possibly getting it wrong over a one-inch call instead.

 

Do we really want to return to the days when players were being called off by mistake when they were two yards on? Because that used to happen REGULARLY in past seasons!

Personally I would be absolutely over the moon.

 

Football was fine the way it was, you got the odd bad decision & the odd good one & the whole thing wasn't a massive fucking circus made for TV & the wankers sitting in the studio.