Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Moctezuma]

You see here's the thing. I spend loads of time in London and as a consequence loads of time with people from the home counties. They all think she's fucking great. I don't understand dit myself, but if they were wired like the rest of us we wouldn't have this fucking government anyway.

 

Agreed, wish we could just hive them off so they can form their own right wing mentalist state, you just know it would fall apart in a few months as when push comes to shove no one really wants to live on Daily Mail island.

 

[dennis tooth]

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/11/theresa-mays-terrible-instincts/

[VladimirIlyich]

Corbyn has zero chance. Unless he says something they can twist the media largely ignore him and do not report any kind of policy. The negatives make the headlines and that's all. Sadly the Labour Party needs a personality an angry one at that.

The last time we had a situation like this the electorate voted in Blair,on the back of John Smith's popularity.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/03/labour-alternative-britain-party-left-crisis-europe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

 

Almost all of Europe’s social democratic parties are in crisis. It doesn’t matter if their leaderships hail from the right – like Germany’s Social Democrats, currently hovering around 20% in opinion polls – or from the left, like Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour. The scale, the specifics, all differ, but the common theme is crisis.

 

In some countries, such as Greece and Poland, they have all but ceased to exist; towards the better end, Sweden’s Social Democrats cling on in a weak coalition minority government. From dramatic demographic shifts to the rise of nativist populism; from new radical left movements to our model of globalisation; from traditional voters disillusioned with their parties’ embrace of cuts to the rise of civic nationalist movements – well, where do you even begin?

 

Today, the Fabian society has released a sobering (to say the least) report looking at British Labour’s own existential plight. In the often bitterly polarised world of Labour politics, there will be two predictable responses. One is, aha, everything is Corbyn’s fault, if only he rebranded as a self-described “moderate” (whatever that means), Labour would somehow buck the entire trend of European social democracy. The other – from the more uncritical leadership loyalists – is to dismiss the report as enemy propaganda and respond “pah, polling!” (even though, while big polling errors do happen, it is always to Labour’s detriment). Both are mistakes that prevent Labour from addressing its very serious woes.

 

Labour is too big to fail, say the Fabians: that is, the electoral system prevents it from being replaced as the main opposition party. It is, however, extremely unlikely to win a majority whenever the general election takes place, and could even fall to between 140 and 150 seats.. But perhaps the biggest current existential crisis – and there are many – is the legacy of the EU referendum. Labour’s electoral coalition includes both ardent remainers and ardent leavers. The party has already lost four times as many leave voters as remain voters, note the Fabians: underlining why if Owen Smith – who backed a second referendum and refused to rule out joining the euro and the Schengen agreement – had won in September, Labour’s current plight could be even worse. And yet at the same time the party is losing remain supporters to the Liberal Democrats; perhaps even the Greens. Whichever way Labour turns, it risks critical bits of its electoral coalition crumbling away. Hence, paralysis: the party’s position on the defining issue of our time – Brexit – undeniably lacks clarity.

 

Labour has to confront many crises that have nothing to do with Corbyn: Scotland is just one, where Labour’s brittle dominance was smashed away in the aftermath of the referendum. Thanks to medical advances, we live in an ageing population: but with every general election, Labour loses older supporters – the demographic most likely to vote. Unless it reverses this trend, it will never win again, explaining the commendable determination of the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, to defend the triple lock on pensions.

Labour’s right are miserable, but their more thoughtful proponents accept they lack strategy, vision or ideas. They have no obvious routemap back to power. They cannot realistically point to a single other country and say – this is what Labourshould be doing (unless they wish to emulate the Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau’s electoral victory on the back of pledging to borrow to invest). They can say Corbyn isn’t working but they can’t outline what would work instead. They are intellectually barren and politically lost, and they would be whether Corbyn was leader or not.

 

That is not to ignore the failings of the Labour leadership. Corbyn originally stood for leader out of a sense of duty, to put policies on the agenda. His upper expectations were to win between 20 and 25% of the vote: he won nearly 60% instead, thanks to the ineptitude of his opponents and their lack of vision. The most experienced politician would have struggled against a concerted media offensive and a lack of parliamentary support, let alone a backbench rebel long consigned to the wilderness. The leadership made lots of mistakes that cut through. There was a collective failure of the left (the likes of me included): we have long trapped ourselves in a defensive posture and lacked a clear vision of our own, other than saying “stop!” to policies we didn’t like.

 

 

Research suggests that voters don’t think Labour is too leftwing, they just don’t know what the party stands for

Political leadership means saying, here’s what’s wrong with society, here’s what our vision of what society is instead, here’s how we get there. It means hammering at key messages ad infinitum, backed up with policies that are indicative of where the party is coming from. It means speaking in an everyday language that resonates beyond politicos, and having lots to say to the average Briton who is neither poor nor well-off. This has been lacking, and Labour often seems missing from political debate, although some relatively recent appointees (such as Corbyn’s press officer, Matt Zarb-Cousin, and his colleague James Schneider) are determined to change that. Research suggests that voters don’t think Labour is too leftwing, whatever the Labour right argue; they just don’t know what the party stands for. And if you don’t define yourself, you will be defined – mercilessly – by your opponents. Yes, we have a viciously rightwing media, but they are not going to vanish: there just needs to be a sophisticated strategy to deal with them.

 

In today’s fraught political climate, there are some who respond that this critique is only offered because I’m a careerist, secretly rightwing, motivated by money, or part of a Guardian conspiracy against the Labour leadership. In truth, it’s because I want a genuinely radical Labour leadership to succeed: one that invests, rather than cuts; that forces the rich to pay a fair share of tax; that gives workers rights, security, and dignity; that confronts climate change, and treats it as an opportunity to promote the industries and jobs of the future; that brings our services under the ownership of the people of this country; that stops forcing young people to suffer the brunt of a crisis they had nothing to do with; that makes high-quality, affordable housing a basic right for every citizen.

However, if Labour loses terribly in an election, the left gets blamed, the party shifts off to the right in response, and the country is even more consumed with rightwing populism, then those things will (to put it bluntly) not happen. The Fabian report has some interesting analysis, but no solutions other than chasing an indecipherable “cultural ‘middle’”. Nonetheless, let’s not ignore challenges: let’s confront them and resolve to overcome them. Come on, Labour. A new year, a new start: let’s see the compelling alternative this country so desperately needs.

[Creator Supreme]

He should quit, and so should the likes of McDonnell! They're in the wrong party, in the wrong country, and on the wrong planet for their political stance to make a difference.

 

The human race is full of greedy, ill educated, racist gobshites. There's no way for anything left of extreme right wing to be elected in the west anymore!

 

Game over man, game over!

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Let's all shut up and let the Fascists have their own way.

 

What a smashing idea. What could possibly go wrong?

[Creator Supreme]

Whether we shut up or not, they're having their own way anyway!

 

I'm tired of shouting back, it's pointless! We are going the way of Germany in the 30's, and there's nothing any of us can do anymore because their narrative has sunk in!

[Section_31]

Whether we shut up or not, they're having their own way anyway!

 

I'm tired of shouting back, it's pointless! We are going the way of Germany in the 30's, and there's nothing any of us can do anymore because their narrative has sunk in!

 

I don't think it's to do with the era we're living in, I just don't think the States and the UK are especially left wing countries, probably because the 'working classes' here perceive themselves to have benefited from Empire. They only turn to left wing governments when things go tits up and then dispense with them once everything is 'fixed'. 

 

The problem is the media and the ruling class, and by ruling class I don't mean the blue bloods, I mean this mass of upper middle classes who dominate absolutely everything of any value in this country, from the arts and media to property and fashion, they've got it all sewn up with with internships and nepotism. It's the backlash to this that caused Trump and caused Brexit IMO, but it's an unfocussed and brainless backlash, as Sanders said recently - the likes of Trump have spotted the right problems but they've identified the wrong solutions. 

 

I don't think we're on the cusp of any Hitler-style right wing ideology on either side of the pond, just because some of the people who voted for these things spout racist bile, I don't think the likes of Farage and Trump give a shit about immigration or about race,  they're all about the money, and they don't want the people who are really to blame to take that blame, so they redirect it elsewhere with the help of the media. (Only last night there was a story on the news about 'tributes being paid' to a bloke who died fighting for Kurdish forces from the UK, had he been fighting for IS his family probably would have been rounded up).

 

That being said, I don't believe Corbyn's unpopularity is anything to do with any of the above, I think it's purely down to the fact he is - by most accounts - an extremely poor leader.  

[Rotpeter]

 

That being said, I don't believe Corbyn's unpopularity is anything to do with any of the above, I think it's purely down to the fact he is - by most accounts - an extremely poor leader.  

He was so effective in the leadership contest, it's been a pretty brutal about face.

[Stickman]

He was so effective in the leadership contest, it's been a pretty brutal about face.

 

 

You also have to remember who he was up against ......

[Strontium]

We are going the way of Germany in the 30's, and there's nothing any of us can do anymore because their narrative has sunk in!

 

Yes, the Nazis were well known for legalising gay marriage and allocating 0.7% of GDP to overseas aid.

[Hades]

Ever tried talking to people suffering rather than talked down to them about how they should feel?

[Stu Monty]

Shame that someone didn't think to make that TSSA video about us subsidising everyone else's national transport a bit less gloaty. They had the right message and now they've spoilt it because the discussion is about making Europeans look like they're rubbing it in. Mis-step that.

 

Although it should be noted, nobody that is genuinely taking issue with that element of the video is ever voting Tory, and a lot who are clearly won't give a fuck that they've made the Germans arrogant, and the message will hit home.

[sir roger]

I do fear for the country as i have never known a time when such a great proportion of the adult population seem ignorant ( or uncaring ) of the political issues at play.

 

I worked in a white collar environment with well educated colleagues until recently and it was almost impossible to get any political conversation going that went far past Theresa May being stylish or Corbyn being scruffy, even if it was about the likes of pensions or job security that directly affected the people involved. However, mention the football and the blokes would talk for hours and any tweet by Kim Kardashian halted any female work for a similar period.

[Section_31]

I do fear for the country as i have never known a time when such a great proportion of the adult population seem ignorant ( or uncaring ) of the political issues at play.

 

I worked in a white collar environment with well educated colleagues until recently and it was almost impossible to get any political conversation going that went far past Theresa May being stylish or Corbyn being scruffy, even if it was about the likes of pensions or job security that directly affected the people involved. However, mention the football and the blokes would talk for hours and any tweet by Kim Kardashian halted any female work for a similar period.

 

I do agree with that, again though I think much of it is down to the media. There's very few leaders out there taking hold of the debate. Just look at how Questiontime has been dumbed down, or serious papers like the Independent now reduced to clickbait garbage. They portray things like industrial action as futile and troublesome.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I do agree with that, again though I think much of it is down to the media. There's very few leaders out there taking hold of the debate. Just look at how Questiontime has been dumbed down, or serious papers like the Independent now reduced to clickbait garbage. They portray things like industrial action as futile and troublesome.

The tragedy is that, just when we needed the whole of the Labour Party to unite and do just that, the majority of the PLP decided that they'd rather keep plodding along in the same comfortable, well-upholstered rut.

[Tony Moanero]

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[Moctezuma]

I do fear for the country as i have never known a time when such a great proportion of the adult population seem ignorant ( or uncaring ) of the political issues at play.

 

I worked in a white collar environment with well educated colleagues until recently and it was almost impossible to get any political conversation going that went far past Theresa May being stylish or Corbyn being scruffy, even if it was about the likes of pensions or job security that directly affected the people involved. However, mention the football and the blokes would talk for hours and any tweet by Kim Kardashian halted any female work for a similar period.

 

While I completely agree with you on this, there is also a tradition of trying to avoid political conversation in public/work places in the U.K. which I still find a bit odd given it impacts on the minutiae of everyone's lives no matter how much they like to think otherwise or are unaware.

[jimmycase]

As twice elected leader, Corbyn, while not my choice for leader, must be given the chance to lead the party at the next General Election. I fear the policies he wants the party to go to the country on will lead to an almost anihilation of the party though.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Most people agree with many of his policy's but the media have Ed millibanded him to the extreme and he hasn't the ability to counter it. He has been very very poor as a leader but his policy's his decency and honesty are miles above most of the other shite opposite him. Labour need a backbone and claws it would help if some of the mps they get to do interviews where actually informed. Emily Thornberry is a halfwit.

[Jairzinho]

Most people agree with many of his policy's but the media have Ed millibanded him to the extreme and he hasn't the ability to counter it. He has been very very poor as a leader but his policy's his decency and honesty are miles above most of the other shite opposite him. Labour need a backbone and claws it would help if some of the mps they get to do interviews where actually informed. Emily Thornberry is a halfwit.

 

He has inherited a fucking awful squad and will need at least one transfer window before you can say it's his team.

[Section_31]

Most people agree with many of his policy's but the media have Ed millibanded him to the extreme and he hasn't the ability to counter it. He has been very very poor as a leader but his policy's his decency and honesty are miles above most of the other shite opposite him. Labour need a backbone and claws it would help if some of the mps they get to do interviews where actually informed. Emily Thornberry is a halfwit.

 

See, I'm not sure that's true, I did do originally, that the knives were out from day one - which of course was always going to be true, but for me the sheer number of people who don't rate him as a leader speaks volumes. 

 

His ex girlfriend who's widely regarded as the biggest buffoon in Labour is shadow home secretary, and Owen Jones has been branded a Blairite for saying he may not be the man to lead Labour, that's how fucked up  the current situation is. 

[Jairzinho]

A tiny amount of people think that about Owen Jones, Sec. 

 

And he can be both a shit leader and have a party full of fucking cunts, they're not mutually exclusive.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

As twice elected leader, Corbyn, while not my choice for leader, must be given the chance to lead the party at the next General Election. I fear the policies he wants the party to go to the country on will lead to an almost anihilation of the party though.

The policies are popular, even with Tory voters.

 

The trouble is, the tiny handful of tax-dodging billionaires who own the newspapers are vehemently opposed to them.

[Hooch]

I do fear for the country as i have never known a time when such a great proportion of the adult population seem ignorant ( or uncaring ) of the political issues at play.

 

I worked in a white collar environment with well educated colleagues until recently and it was almost impossible to get any political conversation going that went far past Theresa May being stylish or Corbyn being scruffy, even if it was about the likes of pensions or job security that directly affected the people involved. However, mention the football and the blokes would talk for hours and any tweet by Kim Kardashian halted any female work for a similar period.

 

Yep.

 

I genuinely can't get into it with people because it just makes things awkward for all involved. Everyone in my circle just genuinely don't want to talk about it, making me the weird one.

 

People just don't got the head space for it, it's easier to keep the blinkers on and focus on themselves and  what they can control. I can understand that mindset for sure, but when 90% of the population have the mindset it makes for the current political climate. Sec's right the media exacerbate that too.