Racism

[Carradona]

53 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

 

Where did I say that? 

 

Was he? Must have a had a shit lawyer. I've been to plenty of Old Firms and been around Celtic supporters all my life, not one has ever aligned the term "hun" with any religious association. Now if I called one a "Dirty Orange Bastard" yeah I can accept that would have religious meaning. 

I grew up in a place where the word 'hun' was quite obviously a derogatory term used against Protestants and as equally offensive as the words 'taig' and 'fenian', apparently. We were advised not to say it. It definitely has negative connotations for the Protestant community and any Irish Celtic fans will be aware of that.

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Red Shift said:

To me, this is confusing.

 

What part?

[Jairzinho]

50 minutes ago, Mook said:

Surely being prejudiced against Muslims is sectarian, as opposed to racist. Given Islam is a religion and not a race.

 

I could convert to Islam, wouldn't make me the same race as someone from Palestine.

 

Would depend on the reason for being prejudiced against Muslims. Many people in the UK just see "Muslims" as violent brown people who want to destroy their 19th century rose tinted vision of the UK. It doesn't have anything to do with religion. They couldn't actually tell you anything about Islam, or Hinduism or Sikhism, or any other belief system they're petrified of. 

 

I play cricket in a team with people of all three faiths, from all the cricket playing nations of West Asia (first and second generation). They're regularly racially abused by "rugby lads" from small towns in the valleys. I'm going to go out on a limb and say very few of them are great theologians who have issues with religion positions. 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Carradona said:

I grew up in a place where the word 'hun' was quite obviously a derogatory term used against Protestants and as equally offensive as the words 'taig' and 'fenian', apparently. We were advised not to say it. It definitely has negative connotations for the Protestant community and any Irish Celtic fans will be aware of that.

 

I'm not Irish. But if it is over there then so be it. I've stopped using the term anyway because its offensive but I've never used it in a religious context. It stemmed from that news article, if it's been adopted as a slur against protestants then fair enough. 

[A Red]

56 minutes ago, Mook said:

Surely being prejudiced against Muslims is sectarian, as opposed to racist. Given Islam is a religion and not a race.

 

I could convert to Islam, wouldn't make me the same race as someone from Palestine.

Sectarian is Shia and shiite having a go at each other. Bit like protestant and roman Catholic.

 

 

[Red Shift]

15 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

What part?

 

I’ll keep following the conversation. I don’t understand the depth of the definition of Racism.

[Mook]

10 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Would depend on the reason for being prejudiced against Muslims. Many people in the UK just see "Muslims" as violent brown people who want to destroy their 19th century rose tinted vision of the UK. It doesn't have anything to do with religion. They couldn't actually tell you anything about Islam, or Hinduism or Sikhism, or any other belief system they're petrified of. 

 

I play cricket in a team with people of all three faiths, from all the cricket playing nations of West Asia (first and second generation). They're regularly racially abused by "rugby lads" from small towns in the valleys. I'm going to go out on a limb and say very few of them are great theologians who have issues with religion positions. 

 

 

 

Aye, I'd agree with that.

 

It all boils down to hatred, ignorance and fear at the end of the day, whatever you want to call it.

[Mook]

3 minutes ago, A Red said:

Sectarian is Shia and shiite having a go at each other. Bit like protestant and roman Catholic.

 

 

 

That makes sense, so sectarianism is hatred between different sects of the same ideology.

 

Hatred of Islam/Muslims would be Islamophobia then, as opposed to sectarianism.

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

It stemmed from that news article, if it's been adopted as a slur against protestants then fair enough. 

 

With no idea as to the origination - Irish folks

 

https://www.irishpost.com/news/what-does-the-word-hun-mean-and-what-is-its-place-in-todays-society-91001#:~:text=Another popular theory is that,in town for a match.

 

I’ve come across several theories put forward by Celtic and Rangers fans as to its origins, albeit on that most dubious of sources that is the football web forum.

 

Theories are ten-a-penny – there are even suggestions that Rangers fans initially called Celtic fans ‘huns’ because of Irish Republicans’ support for Nazi Germany, and that it was chanted by fans of both teams when the losing side’s supporters were spotted leaving early: “Go home you huns…” One Hibs fan wrote that he recalled singing the same refrain no matter who the visitors to Easter Road.

Another popular theory is that the term was used by an English newspaper to compare Rangers fans to “marauding huns” — the nomadic, devastating military force infamously led by Attila in the fifth century — when they ran amok while in town for a match.

However, I have seen the location of the chaos variously identified as Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Newcastle and Sunderland. While there exist reports of visiting Rangers fans’ anarchic behaviour in English cities throughout the decades when in town for friendly and European fixtures, I have yet to see any evidence of this ubiquitously cited “marauding huns” quote.

 

 

[A Red]

The problem tends to be, with regard to religion, when the slackjaws display bigotry. All Muslims are murderers all rangers/unionists are huns/cunts.

 

You don't need to look far to spot the types and examples.

[Red Shift]

4 minutes ago, Mook said:

 

Aye, I'd agree with that.

 

It all boils down to hatred, ignorance and fear at the end of the day, whatever you want to call it.

Exactly, and fear begets violence which leads to…more violence ad infinitum. Have we learned absolutely nothing in the *X* amount of years we’ve been on this tiny little rock?

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

 

I’ll keep following the conversation. I don’t understand the depth of the definition of Racism.

 

It has been watered down to where we are now and can't even agree on what it is.

 

The original definition was clear - prejudice plus the power (individually or collectively) to negatively affect the group being prejudiced against equaled racism.

That group was invariably an acknowledged race. Not a religion and certainly not a country/gubmint.

 

 

[Red Shift]

59 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

It has been watered down to where we are now and can't even agree on what it is.

 

The original definition was clear - prejudice plus the power (individually or collectively) to negatively affect the group being prejudiced against equaled racism.

That group was invariably an acknowledged race. Not a religion and certainly not a country/gubmint.

 

 

that’s what I thought, hence my confusion in this discussion.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, Strontium said:

 hatred of Islam, which is perfectly reasonable.

Hatred of any religion isn't reasonable.

[Anubis]

But other forms of racism are fine. I’m very suspicious of this. What will be deemed antisemitism. I think it will include things that aren’t antisemitism,

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

That all Muslims are the same race?

It would be directly implied if Islamophobia is racist. Otherwise it couldn't be right?

The mistake you're making is assuming that "race" is a real thing.  It isn't.

 

Racism - the process of sticking a label on people and then treating them differently as a result of that label - is a real thing.

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Hatred of any religion isn't reasonable.

 

I'm sure you'll be explaining why.

[TheHowieLama]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The mistake you're making is assuming that "race" is a real thing.  It isn't.

 

Racism - the process of sticking a label on people and then treating them differently as a result of that label - is a real thing.

 

I think you would be very hard pressed to convince anyone - especially someone of color - that you first sentence isn't complete bollocks both interms of physical/biological make up and shared history.

Stronts can chime in as he correctly pointed out it has been discussed before and he painstakingly pointed out at the time why Jews are one.

 

This part

the process of sticking a label on people and then treating them differently as a result of that label

is true, hence my comment on the difference between tribalism and racism.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

I'm sure you'll be explaining why.

You think hatred is "reasonable"?

 

I've never seen a definition of "reasonable" that allows hatred as a rational response.

 

Personally, I think it's best to live and let live. If people crack on with their lives and treat each other with respect, I don't give a fuck whether they prefer Bronze Age fairy stories, Medieval fairy stories, or no fairy stories at all. Why would I waste time and energy hating any of that stuff?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

I think you would be very hard pressed to convince anyone - especially someone of color - that you first sentence isn't complete bollocks both interms of physical/biological make up and shared history.

Stronts can chime in as he correctly pointed out it has been discussed before and he painstakingly pointed out at the time why Jews are one.

 

This part

the process of sticking a label on people and then treating them differently as a result of that label

is true, hence my comment on the difference between tribalism and racism.

Race has no basis in biology. It's entirely a social construct.

[Red Shift]

1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You think hatred is "reasonable"?

 

I've never seen a definition of "reasonable" that allows hatred as a rational response.

 

Personally, I think it's best to live and let live. If people crack on with their lives and treat each other with respect, I don't give a fuck whether they prefer Bronze Age fairy stories, Medieval fairy stories, or no fairy stories at all. Why would I waste time and energy hating any of that stuff?

Back in the 1980s the catch phrase was ‘Unity In Diversity’

Now sadly forgotten.

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Race has no basis in biology. It's entirely a social construct.

 

Erm, ok.

[Bjornebye]

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Why would I waste time and energy hating any of that stuff?

 

Because far more than any other outside influence in history it has resulted in the politics of every country in the world?

Because more than any other outside influence it continues to affect your day to day existence?

[Bjornebye]

23 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

I'm sure you'll be explaining why.

If somebody said they hate Judaism and all it stands for would you call them anti-Semitic?