Racism

[AngryOfTuebrook]

16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Erm, ok.

Well.... yes.

 

Ask a biologist.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

15 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Because far more than any other outside influence in history it has resulted in the politics of every country in the world?

Because more than any other outside influence it continues to affect your day to day existence?

Nah.

Religions have been - and continue to be - used as a tool for political power struggles, which would take place by other means if religion didn't exist.

And religion is waaaaaay down the list of outside influences on my day to day existence.

[Red Shift]

 

20 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Well.... yes.

 

Ask a biologist.

 

I don't know one - or at least anyone who will admit it.

 

Genetic traits are certainly race based. 

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nah.

Religions have been - and continue to be - used as a tool for political power struggles, which would take place by other means if religion didn't exist.

And religion is waaaaaay down the list of outside influences on my day to day existence.

 

The first part - the power in history has always been with the Church. They were the original politicos.

 

In italics - you live in the UK and you think religion is way down the list?

[Red Shift]

Time for another plug. Out early 2024

 

 

[Red Shift]

So we’re all the same family , right?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

[TheHowieLama]

13 minutes ago, Red Shift said:

So we’re all the same family , right?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

 

One big happy family.

 

Now move to the back of the bus.

[Strontium]

37 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You think hatred is "reasonable"?

 

I've never seen a definition of "reasonable" that allows hatred as a rational response.

 

Personally, I think it's best to live and let live. If people crack on with their lives and treat each other with respect, I don't give a fuck whether they prefer Bronze Age fairy stories, Medieval fairy stories, or no fairy stories at all. Why would I waste time and energy hating any of that stuff?

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable to hate any ideology if it can be demonstrated that that ideology has caused or would cause damage to humanity.

 

At this point we should note Nye Bevan's comment "no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory party... So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin", words which you have previously echoed yourself.

 

Even if we stretch credulity to the limit and charitably treat it as a reference to hating Conservative ideology rather than Conservative people, what is the difference between hating one ideology for its impact upon the world, and hating another for the same reason? Let's have a bit of consistency here.

 

22 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

If somebody said they hate Judaism and all it stands for would you call them anti-Semitic? 

 

I think it's reasonable for someone to hate a religion. It's odd if they start singling one out and it's even odder if they say they hate "all it stands for" because not everything that religions stand for are bad.

 

I've always been clear that I have disdain for all religions; for this I have been called Islamophobic plenty of times, but not to my recollection Christophobic.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

17 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

I don't know one - or at least anyone who will admit it.

 

Genetic traits are certainly race based. 

Nope. Genetic traits are certainly not race based, because, there's no such thing as "race" in genetics or any area of human biology.  "Race science" emerged in the era of feeling the bumps on a skull, to see if the owner was criminal, or lazy, or Irish, and that's the era in which it belongs.

 

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Strontium said:

 

I think it's perfectly reasonable to hate any ideology if it can be demonstrated that that ideology has caused or would cause damage to humanity.

 

At this point we should note Nye Bevan's comment "no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory party... So far as I am concerned, they are lower than vermin", words which you have previously echoed yourself.

 

Even if we stretch credulity to the limit and charitably treat it as a reference to hating Conservative ideology rather than Conservative people, what is the difference between hating one ideology for its impact upon the world, and hating another for the same reason? Let's have a bit of consistency here.

 

 

I think it's reasonable for someone to hate a religion. It's odd if they start singling one out and it's even odder if they say they hate "all it stands for" because not everything that religions stand for are bad.

 

I've always been clear that I have disdain for all religions; for this I have been called Islamophobic plenty of times, but not to my recollection Christophobic.

Im no fan of religion but appreciate those who are. In my world of someone started banging on about hating Judaism I’d think they were anti-Semitic. Same as if someone starts banging on about hating Islam and Mohammed etc I’d think they were islamophobic. Maybe it’s just me. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

27 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

The first part - the power in history has always been with the Church. They were the original politicos.

 

In italics - you live in the UK and you think religion is way down the list?

The power in history has always been with the ruling classes.  Religions and their followers have, at various times (to the present day) been persecuted by the ruling classes; sometimes in the name of another religion, sometimes in the name of none.  Rulers keep their subjects in line by enlisting them in the greatest battle of all: the battle between "Us" and "Them".  Sometimes they use religion to define Us & Them. To blame religion for all these centuries of violence and oppression is like blaming hammers for the Yorkshire Ripper murders.

 

(And, yes, I live in the UK and this forum has more influence on my daily life than all the religions combined.)

[Red Shift]

11 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

One big happy family.

 

Now move to the back of the bus.

please Sir - I’d like to be moved to the Top-Front of the bus. By the heaters on a cold winters day.

[TheHowieLama]

8 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nope. Genetic traits are certainly not race based, 

 

 

Crap - here I was thinking I would get a pass on sickle cell anemia.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Crap - here I was thinking I would get a pass on sickle cell anemia.

Some conditions are more prevalent among people from different genetic backgrounds.

 

That doesn't mean that "race" exists as anything other than a social construct.

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

The power in history has always been with the ruling classes.  Religions and their followers have, at various times (to the present day) been persecuted by the ruling classes; sometimes in the name of another religion, sometimes in the name of none.  Rulers keep their subjects in line by enlisting them in the greatest battle of all: the battle between "Us" and "Them".  Sometimes they use religion to define Us & Them. To blame religion for all these centuries of violence and oppression is like blaming hammers for the Yorkshire Ripper murders.

 

(And, yes, I live in the UK and this forum has more influence on my daily life than all the religions combined.)

 

I think you would have to be extraordinarily naive to not realize throughout the fat end of history the ruling class and the church were one and the same.

 

Who is the head of the Church of England anyway?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

 

I think you would have to be extraordinarily naive to not realize throughout the fat end of history the ruling class and the church were one and the same.

 

Who is the head of the Church of England anyway?

I think you'd have to be extraordinarily... something not to realise that I acknowledged that.

 

The head of the CofE is the King.  Do you know how much impact Jug-Ears has on my daily life?  Less than the GF.

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I think you'd have to be extraordinarily... something not to realise that I acknowledged that.

 

The head of the CofE is the King.  Do you know how much impact Jug-Ears has on my daily life?  Less than the GF.

 

Not a big cause and effect fella are you?

500 years on.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

Not a big cause and effect fella are you?

500 years on.

Er...?

 

What impact do you think the CofE has on my daily life?

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Er...?

 

What impact do you think the CofE has on my daily life?

 

What impact do I think the Monarchy/Church have had on shaping the current state of the UK, in turn, just about everything in your daily life?

 

Alot. I already said that. Do you think austerity was a political concept before it was a religious one?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

What impact do I think the Monarchy/Church have had on shaping the current state of the UK, in turn, just about everything in your daily life?

 

Alot. I already said that. Do you think austerity was a political concept before it was a religious one?

You're wrong.  There's next to nothing in my daily life that is shaped by religion. The economic policy of austerity certainly has no religious basis.

 

Do you live in the UK?

 

(The fact that the CofE was founded following a political spat between Henry VIII and the Catholic Church sort of reinforces my point: it's all about power politics; religion is secondary, at best.)

 

[TheHowieLama]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You're wrong.  There's next to nothing in my daily life that is shaped by religion. The economic policy of austerity certainly has no religious basis.

 

Do you live in the UK?

 

(The fact that the CofE was founded following a political spat between Henry VIII and the Catholic Church sort of reinforces my point: it's all about power politics; religion is secondary, at best.)

 

 

First I think you have started to conflate religion with the Church and it's actions.

 

On the bold - passing the hat amongst the peasants was austerity for centuries. The concept of austerity is literally rooted in the Church and was co opted by the gubmint, guilt trip and all.

You may want to think that the religious folks have had no effect on the policies of the past, shaping the current and will continue to - moreso than any other outside influence - but I disagree. No biggie.

 

Live there? Fuck no, it's freezing half the time.

US for me and I have no reservations about acknowledging the massive influence the Church folks have had on this country, past and present. Roe v Wade was just repealed man.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

My point is that, in the UK, we don't have anything like the religious fundamentalist lobby that is so powerful in the States.  We have an established church, but (apart from things like Easter & Christmas holidays and shit telly on a Sunday morning) it's really easy to ignore.

 

The austere living promoted by the early Christian communities was all about looking after each other and looking after those worse off than themselves.  (You could call it proto-Socialism.). Economic austerity - as practised by ruling classes either in the name of religion or in its absence - is the opposite of that: it's just all about power and greed.

[Kevin D]

Horrible to think things like this still happen in the world:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/nov/22/jim-irsay-dui-arrest-white-billonaire-prejudjice
 

Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay said his March 2014 arrest for driving under the influence was a result of prejudice against him for being white and wealthy.

 

The longtime NFL owner spoke about the circumstances of his arrest in an interview with the HBO show Real Sports that aired on Tuesday. Irsay later pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of operating a vehicle while impaired after initially facing four additional counts of possession of a controlled substance.

 

“I am prejudiced against because I’m a rich, white billionaire,” Irsay told HBO’s Andrea Kremer. “If I’m just the average guy down the block, they’re not pulling me in, of course not.”

 

Asked how he thinks it sounds for a white billionaire to claim that he’s a victim of prejudice, Irsay stood by his remarks.

 

“I don’t care what it sounds like,” Irsay said. “It’s the truth ... I could give a damn what people think how anything sounds or sounds like. The truth is the truth, and I know the truth.”

 

Police in the Indianapolis suburb of Carmel pulled Irsay over after observing a man in a Toyota Highlander driving slowly, stopping in the roadway and failing to use a turn signal. Authorities discovered various prescription drugs in Irsay’s vehicle along with more than $29,000 in cash.

 

A toxicology report showed Irsay had the painkillers oxycodone and hydrocodone as well as alprazolam, which is used to treat anxiety, in his system at the time of his arrest. Officers on the scene said he had trouble reciting the alphabet and failed other field sobriety tests.

 

The NFL suspended Irsay for the first six of his team’s games the following season and fined him $500,000.

 

Irsay claimed that when he was asked to take a field sobriety test and looked unsteady walking, it was because he had just had hip surgery. Asked why he pleaded guilty if he had been profiled, Irsay said he just wanted to get it over with.

 

The Carmel police department said in an emailed statement to the Indianapolis Star: “We are very sorry to hear that comment about our officers and our department. We have a very professional agency consisting of officers that strive to protect our community with integrity and professionalism.”

 

The 64-year-old businessman also told Real Sports that he has gone to rehab for addiction 15 times and that he once nearly died of an overdose, adding that “addiction and alcoholism is a fatal disease.”
 

Irsay’s father, Robert Irsay, built his fortune through a series of successful heating and air-conditioning companies before purchasing the Baltimore Colts and controversially relocating the team to Indiana in 1984.

 

Jim Irsay has owned the Colts since 1997, when he emerged victorious from a legal battle with his stepmother over the ownership of the team following the death of his father.

[Pidge]

4 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

My point is that, in the UK, we don't have anything like the religious fundamentalist lobby that is so powerful in the States.  We have an established church, but (apart from things like Easter & Christmas holidays and shit telly on a Sunday morning) it's really easy to ignore.

 

The austere living promoted by the early Christian communities was all about looking after each other and looking after those worse off than themselves.  (You could call it proto-Socialism.). Economic austerity - as practised by ruling classes either in the name of religion or in its absence - is the opposite of that: it's just all about power and greed.

We do have 21 bishops in the house of lords, mind.