World War II

[Lee909]

Quite a big date in WW2 history today

 

May 10th on various years in the war

 

10 May 1940

Germany invaded the Allied nation of France and the neutral Low Countries. In France, Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed many French aircraft on the ground. German tanks crossed into neutral Luxembourg with relative ease, reaching the edge of the Ardennes Forest; the royal family of Luxembourg was evacuated to the south. In the Netherlands, German paratroopers quickly secured key bridges and airfields around Rotterdam and the Hague, but the plan to land troops at the Ypenburg airfield to capture the Dutch political leaders was foiled when Dutch fighters shot down 18 German Ju 52 transport planes; German tanks penetrated more than 10 miles into the Dutch border by the end of the day. In Belgium, 10 gliders landed 78 German airborne soldiers atop Fort Ebel Emael at the crossings of the Albert Canal and the River Meusse, pinning down the 700 Belgian defenders. British and French leaders enacted the Dyle Plan in response to the invasion, moving troops toward the Dyle River in Belgium where they were to form a defensive line.

 

 

British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain had decided overnight to resign from this post, but the news of the German invasion of France and the Low Countries gave him second thoughts. Nevertheless, he decided to continue his plan to resign. Later in the day, Winston Churchill was asked to assume the post left vacant by Chamberlain.

 

10 May 1941

Sparking a controversy that will last long after the war, Deputy Führer Rudolf Hess landed in Scotland, United Kingdom with a Bf 110 fighter in an attempt to dissuade Duke of Hamilton to introduce him to King George VI in order to broker peace between the United Kingdom and Germany. This mission was not authorized by Adolf Hitler. He landed 12 miles from the Duke's residence, broke his ankle, and was arrested by a farmer. He was taken into custody and remained so until his death.

 

 

A German rocket engine test reached the speed of 1,002 kilometers per hour.

 

 

German submarine U-556 attacked Allied convoy OB-318 between Greenland and Iceland, sinking British ship Empire Caribou (34 killed, 11 survived) and Belgian ship Gand (1 killed, 43 survived) and damaging British ship Aelybryn (1 killed).

 

 

German submarine U-110, captured by HMS Bulldog on the previous day, sank while being towed toward Iceland. Her Enigma cipher machine and code book, however, had already been retrieved by the British.

[Lee909]

The wreckage of the USS Indianapolis has been found

If anyone doesn't know its the ship sunk after delivering the atomic bomb and the sailors left in the water for 5 days

https://www.facebook.com/TELEGRAPH.CO.UK/videos/vb.143666524748/10156145157459749/?type=2&theater

 

[skend04]

Judging by the Trump thread, if we had talked to Adolf it all might have been okay without the fisticuffs.

[KopOut]

This day in 1940:

 

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few"

[General Dryness]

Went to see Dunkirk (the film, not the place) the other day.

 

I admit to some moisture around the eyes at the end.

[s(k)aturation]

Went to see Dunkirk (the film, not the place) the other day.

 

I admit to some moisture around the eyes at the end.

 

 

Moisture for General Dryness.

[magicrat]

Churchill warned Roosevelt that this would happen but he was largely ignored

Partly because he wasn't very well trusted by sections of the US Command and especially their Naval Chief of Staff but mainly because it was very much obvious that by the latter stage of the war the UK's power was on the wane whilst the USSR was very much on the rise

 

Roosevelt agreed ( Churchill acquiesced) with Stalin at Yalta that the Allies wouldn't cross the Elbe . Eisenhower honoured that agreement,  

[Lee909]

And Churchill secretly gave Stalin the go ahead to keep full control in Poland. Selling out all the Polih pilots who were a major factor in winning the battle of Britain

[magicrat]

And Churchill secretly gave Stalin the go ahead to keep full control in Poland. Selling out all the Polih pilots who were a major factor in winning the battle of Britain

 

I doubt he had a lot of choice but I cant claim to know much about the Polish sell out 

[aws]

And Churchill secretly gave Stalin the go ahead to keep full control in Poland. Selling out all the Polih pilots who were a major factor in winning the battle of Britain

Never heard that before. Have you got a source for it as it does seem to run counter to Churchill's general approach to Stalin?

[Lee909]

Its in Antony Beevors Complete history of WW2

[M_B]

He agreed to Stalin keeping the Polish land that Stalin had agreed with Hitler in the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. But that wasn't a secret. There is no evidence that he agreed to allow more than that.

[Dougie Do'ins]

The wreckage of the USS Indianapolis has been found

If anyone doesn't know its the ship sunk after delivering the atomic bomb and the sailors left in the water for 5 days

https://www.facebook.com/TELEGRAPH.CO.UK/videos/vb.143666524748/10156145157459749/?type=2&theater

USS Indianapolis's discovery 'offers closure' to survivors

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41041013

[RobG]

Here's my q for the ww 2 buffs (genuine); was the Battle of Britain as big a deal as depicted?

[Lee909]

Hard to say for sure.

Ultimately id say yes. Withojt the Royal Airforce having air superiority the threat of the German invasion(Op.Sealion) was increased. But the German kriegsmarine didn't habe the ships to transport troops.

 

But another military loss after the defeat in France and evacuation from Dunkirk and standing alone could easily have turned things politically and ousted Churchill for Halifax and a ceasefire deal been made. Independence but loss of vast parts of the Empire,the return of Edward to the throne and a submissive British Government.

[M_B]

Here's my q for the ww 2 buffs (genuine); was the Battle of Britain as big a deal as depicted?

 

It was really yes.

 

On paper The Battle of Britain was a scrap for air superiority to prevent Operation Sealion. The Allies won and Germany was forced to delay the operation to the following year. However the following year, Hitler kicked off his main WW2 ambition to invade the USSR instead and so Sealion was delayed indefinitely.

 

But its arguable that Sealion was never really a realistic aim and whilst the Germans planned for it and certainly went through the motions, they were never really seriously committed to an attempted invasion given the threat of the Royal Navy. However there are also arguments that had Air Superiority been achieved then an invasion would have been attempted in some form. Given the state of the British Army after Dunkirk, an invasion would have succeeded had it got past the Royal Navy.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle - After the Naval Command (which was horrified at the prospect of undertaking an invasion) told Hitler an invasion could only be achieved with Air Superiority, he allowed the blustering Goring (who was eager to make up for his embarrassment of Dunkirk) to convince him that his Air Force would be victorious. So he gave Goring the chance to defeat Britian in the air. We'll never know if Hitler was truely serious about risking a UK invasion whether they'd won the Battle of Britain or not. At the very least he hoped to bring Britain to the negotiating table and it helped to convince Stalin that Germany's attention was elsewhere. That came at a great cost to his airforce though (pilots and morale) which may well have made a difference on the Eastern Front the following years. How Goring survived as the commander of the Luftwaffe throughout the war and why Hitler continued to listen to him is a bit of a mystery really.

 

It was however a massive deal for the British who had been considering surrender after Dunkirk. It united the country and strengthened Churchill politically. It restored the faith in the airforce which had taken a battering in popularity over Dunkirk and the victory gave Britian the breathing space it needed to rebuild its Army. It also showed the world (potential allies and enemies) that the UK was not defeated and that the German war machine was not invincible afterall.

 

On thing is for sure. If Britian had lost the Battle of Britain and Germany had been able to bomb the UK with impunity while its submarines wreaked havoc in the Atlantic then the mere threat of invasion may well have lost Churchill his political support. Its arguable that Britian would have negotiated a conditional surrender in this instance and if she had its also arguable that Germany would have then defeated the USSR.

 

So overall yes, it was a pivotal moment in my view.

[SasaS]

Here's my q for the ww 2 buffs (genuine); was the Battle of Britain as big a deal as depicted?

 

No. It is a hugely important part of British national myth, so it is a big deal within the UK, but it did not influence the overall was as much. Almost every country has its own national myth about some heroic achievement which influenced the outcome of the WWII, delayed the invasion of the USSR and so on.

 

And this part about standing alone to... what exactly? Germany, the country roughly the same size and population and without the global sun-never-sets  colonial empire to fall back on?

[Lee909]

Because it was a German Army with more professional soldiers,a better Airforce and had more war materials on its doorstep and all the French,Czech weapons.

[SasaS]

Ah, the Czech weapons, yes.

[aws]

I don't think the US would have entered the war in Europe if Britain hadn't still been around as a viable ally and an invaluable landing strip. So without the Battle of Britain we'd probably still have Western Europe run by a German dictatorship rather than by Merkel.

[Lee909]

Ah, the Czech weapons, yes.

Yeah there artillery was some of the most modern in the world. The french and czech equipment was all out to use during the war.

[M_B]

No. It is a hugely important part of British national myth, so it is a big deal within the UK, but it did not influence the overall was as much. Almost every country has its own national myth about some heroic achievement which influenced the outcome of the WWII, delayed the invasion of the USSR and so on.

 

And this part about standing alone to... what exactly? Germany, the country roughly the same size and population and without the global sun-never-sets colonial empire to fall back on?

Rubbish.

[chris71]

Anybody follow the Wehrmacht page on Facebook? Wow! Some bunch on there. It makes Blue Kipper look almost sane.

[Frank Dacey]

No. It is a hugely important part of British national myth, so it is a big deal within the UK, but it did not influence the overall was as much. Almost every country has its own national myth about some heroic achievement which influenced the outcome of the WWII, delayed the invasion of the USSR and so on.

 

And this part about standing alone to... what exactly? Germany, the country roughly the same size and population and without the global sun-never-sets  colonial empire to fall back on?

The British Empire was really a source of weakness, rather than strength and the problems of defending the Empire had contributed greatly to the policies the British government pursued in the 1930s. In the first world war some of our best troops had come from Australia and New Zealand. They were so worried about the threat from Japan (consistently aggressive since 1931) that they were refusing to send troops to Europe and actually demanding that more Royal Navy vessels were sent to the Far East. India was in a state of complete uproar in the 1930s and required lots of troops to be stationed there to quell unrest, Egypt was another problem and the IRA launched a bombing campaign in 1939 so even that was a source of concern. On the other hand, in 1939 Germany was largely united and there was considerable support for the Nazi regime.

[aws]

The British Empire was really a source of weakness, rather than strength and the problems of defending the Empire had contributed greatly to the policies the British government pursued in the 1930s. In the first world war some of our best troops had come from Australia and New Zealand. They were so worried about the threat from Japan (consistently aggressive since 1931) that they were refusing to send troops to Europe and actually demanding that more Royal Navy vessels were sent to the Far East. India was in a state of complete uproar in the 1930s and required lots of troops to be stationed there to quell unrest, Egypt was another problem and the IRA launched a bombing campaign in 1939 so even that was a source of concern. On the other hand, in 1939 Germany was largely united and there was considerable support for the Nazi regime.

And Germany had been busily rearming for years while Britain buried its head in the sand. They even had a practice run in Spain for their Air Force.