World War II

[Lee909]

My Audible pile starting to pile up

 

[Section_31]

Chatted to a veteran a few years back who had the least exciting war stories I'd ever heard. He said he'd been involved in the Normandy landings but it turned out he was RAF ground crew but had got there six days after the landing so it was all done and dusted. I asked him if he'd ever seen a German and he said he'd been on a lorry to Arnham but got told the Germans had taken it so truned around. He also said he'd seen two barrells pointing at their wagon through the bushes, but they turned out to be British.

 

His most exciting story was that his mum had sent him a birthday cake but had no eggs, so they were just crumbs and they all shared them.

 

Bert Trautmann told a story once where he said he saw a load of yanks in Bremen and had the distinct impression they'd kill him if he surrendered (dunno why) so he said he jumped over a hedge and landed amidst a load of British soldiers and one said to him 'alright Fritz, fancy a cup of tea?'

[VladimirIlyich]

You are better off not knowing anything about the Red Army exploits if the losses Americans were willing to accept make you sick.

I'm not defending them either although you could understand some of their anger when their country had been occupied and their citizens slaughtered. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

[SasaS]

I think American military is not exactly famous for the disregard of their own soldiers' lives, unlike Soviets' military doctrine which is kind of famous for it. If you look at number of  military deaths in WWII on Wikipedia, the US is listed as 400,000 dead (excluding diseases and accidents 300.000 of which a little over 100.000 died in the Pacific theatre). The USSR's  as between 8.7 and 11.4 million, of which 130,000 (and more than the total number of American dead in the Pacific theatre) died in the winter war with  Finland alone. Germany's military deaths are listed as between 4.4 and 5.3 million. Japan's between 2.1 and 2.3 million, which means they lost almost 20 men for every American that was killed (admittedly some must have died fighting the USSR towards the end of the war and other non-American forces).

[Section_31]

I'm not defending them either although you could understand some of their anger when their country had been occupied and their citizens slaughtered. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

 

Think he means the casualties they suffered.

 

Read a description of Russian Army formations once which made me laugh, the exact words were something like....

 

"At the front came the criminals and other undesirables who would be mown down first, then came standard 'regular' troops, followed by a third wave comprised of the 'Asian hordes'."

[VladimirIlyich]

Think he means the casualties they suffered.

 

Read a description of Russian Army formations once which made me laugh, the exact words were something like....

 

"At the front came the criminals and other undesirables who would be mown down first, then came standard 'regular' troops, followed by a third wave comprised of the 'Asian hordes'."

That was how the whole Red Army was formed wasn't it? Hey Comrade,jail for murder or the Army? Almost always going to be the Army.

Just to distinguish between the US and the Russians,slightly,the Russians were not really our allies and rather a alliance of convenience and had been occupied. The Americans have never been invaded and had little interest in intervening in the European theatre,but I digress. Its a shame there weren't more people around who aren't so eager to go to war in countries still bearing the historical scars from them.

[s(k)aturation]

Sheer weight of expendable numbers.

Lambs to the slaughter.

Like a row of white shark's teeth. Remove them and another row grows in its place.

A never-ending supply for the killing fields.

Stalin's murderous, indifferent (and of course paranoid) pragmatism.

That was the story of Russia's "success".

Only Mao in the Cultural Revolution and Pot, pro rata perhaps, managed to systematically expend their own people better.

[Lee909]

That was how the whole Red Army was formed wasn't it? Hey Comrade,jail for murder or the Army? Almost always going to be the Army.

Just to distinguish between the US and the Russians,slightly,the Russians were not really our allies and rather a alliance of convenience and had been occupied. The Americans have never been invaded and had little interest in intervening in the European theatre,but I digress. Its a shame there weren't more people around who aren't so eager to go to war in countries still bearing the historical scars from them.

Stalin had fucked the army pre war by decimating its top bods in the show trials. Add to that his orders that stopped them mobilising as the Germans built up on the border. He still believed they wouldn't attack and the pact they had would hold.

 

Even fucked off to his dacha waiting for the top generals to get rid of him but they turned up capbhim hand the next day snd asked him to cone back.

 

Where he was very fucking clever was when he got on the radio and called for a great Patriotic war. He never pushed it as a war on Communism and a war on the Motherland.

 

Having said all that he was a massive cunt and his treatment of his own POWs including his son post war shows that. Well his son never made it out the camp.

 

 

Most prisoners were forced into penal legions to go in the front ranks on suicide missions and clear minefields. Normally with a Machine gun behind them.

 

Pretty much

You might die storming the German lines over the mines but you will die if you don't or you turn back

[KopOut]

I'm fascinated by the fact how few people in Britain, even among historians, realize or admit the WWII in Europe was won by the Red Army and not by cracking the Enigma or destroying some dry dock in France or even engaging some German second rate divisions on the Dutch border with Germany for a couple of months.

Fat Boy Goring helped the Red Army a lot. He just about single handedly destroyed the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad.

 

The incompetence of the Luftwaffe was well known.

[Lee909]

As much Hitler constant changing battle plans and Paulus not disobeying orders and keeping his army intact as Goering. The Luftwaffe would never have been able to keep the 6th army supplied.

 

I'd also say its a bit shit saying the British and Americans fought nothi g but second rate units in Holland and some dock in France discredits a pretty bold attempt but Commando's to keep the Kreigsmarine from causing havic in the channel amd shipping lanes to the US.

 

The Red Army did win the war with blood but without Britain survival after the fall of France it would have fell. Britain being in the war meant the German supply lines had far more ground to cover as much of France would have governed itself and troops,viechles could have been moved East on mass. Without Britain in tbe war the Soviets would have been starved of food and the initial viechles(as poor as most were) before the had time to get the mass production of the T34/85 that meant they could stand up to the Panzer IV,Panther and Tiger.

[Section_31]

I don't think any of the great powers that toppled the Germans could have won without the other.

 

Without the British engaging the Nazis alone the war would have been lost by the time America came in, not to mention provide the launch pad for D Day, likewise the Nazis could have flung all of its resources into invading Russia instead of having to keep some in the West as well as maintain the Atlantic campaign.

 

Without the yanks neither us nor the Russians would have been supplied and the Japanese would have invaded Russia from the East.

 

Not to mention Britain's victories in north Africa preventing Italy from seizing it as well as the oil fields in the middle East.

[SasaS]

As much Hitler constant changing battle plans and Paulus not disobeying orders and keeping his army intact as Goering. The Luftwaffe would never have been able to keep the 6th army supplied.

 

I'd also say its a bit shit saying the British and Americans fought nothi g but second rate units in Holland and some dock in France discredits a pretty bold attempt but Commando's to keep the Kreigsmarine from causing havic in the channel amd shipping lanes to the US.

 

The Red Army did win the war with blood but without Britain survival after the fall of France it would have fell. Britain being in the war meant the German supply lines had far more ground to cover as much of France would have governed itself and troops,viechles could have been moved East on mass. Without Britain in tbe war the Soviets would have been starved of food and the initial viechles(as poor as most were) before the had time to get the mass production of the T34/85 that meant they could stand up to the Panzer IV,Panther and Tiger.

 

 

I think we've been over this a couple of years ago already.

 

The fact remains that German casualties were something like 8:1 between East and West, and as far as I recall my comment was mainly written in the context of general British (and American) disregard for the overwhelming importance of the Eastern Front effort in the overall victory over the Germans and the complete obliviousness to the Red Army campaign in Manchuria  which had direct implications on the Chinese communist revolution, Korean War and, I guess this is a bit controversial, contributed to the American decision to end the war with Japan as quickly as possible using the bomb. Americans reportedly weren't prepared to lose a million soldiers invading Japanese islands, Soviets might have been. And Japan was the biggest prize in that part of the world.

[s(k)aturation]

Not to mention Britain's victories in north Africa preventing Italy from seizing it as well as the oil fields in the middle East.

 

 

The mere presence of a military opposition was usually enough to bring Italy unstuck.

[magicrat]

Just as well Hitler took command of the war and didn't leave it to his professionals .  Echoes of this in Trump

[Lee909]

Just as well Hitler took command of the war and didn't leave it to his professionals . Echoes of this in Trump

Swings in roundabouts

Few of the Generals would have been crazy enough to go to war.

 

Im listening to Ian Kershaws biography on Hitler at the moment. Pretty interesting how easily he wrapped so many around his finger and bought them off

[Section_31]

Swings in roundabouts

Few of the Generals would have been crazy enough to go to war.

 

Im listening to Ian Kershaws biography on Hitler at the moment. Pretty interesting how easily he wrapped so many around his finger and bought them off

I find it fascinating from a psychological point of view. You'd think leaders would be less likely to follow someone who was so obviously nuts, but maybe the kind of leaders the military crafts are still programmed to obey.

[Lee909]

It was very strange

I think he managed to get them infighting so much in his early years that they were to busy fighting each other to look at him.

 

He knew how to play his audience and the very early years of the party and its goals must have been very enticing to a nationalistic people with the country on its knees and still feeling the shame and trying to figure out how they lost the war.

 

The socialist side of the party was pushed hard. The breaking down of class (in theory) and putting people into work with the public rebuilding programmes.

 

Its very easy to see how people fell under a spell. And once they got a foothold it was over.

[VladimirIlyich]

I don't think any of the great powers that toppled the Germans could have won without the other.

 

Without the British engaging the Nazis alone the war would have been lost by the time America came in, not to mention provide the launch pad for D Day, likewise the Nazis could have flung all of its resources into invading Russia instead of having to keep some in the West as well as maintain the Atlantic campaign.

 

Without the yanks neither us nor the Russians would have been supplied and the Japanese would have invaded Russia from the East.

 

Not to mention Britain's victories in north Africa preventing Italy from seizing it as well as the oil fields in the middle East.

This seems to be the crux of it all. The combination of the British,US and Soviets was key to pulling off victory.

[Section_31]

This seems to be the crux of it all. The combination of the British,US and Soviets was key to pulling off victory.

It's staggering when you think of what the Germans nearly pulled off.

[VladimirIlyich]

It's staggering when you think of what the Germans nearly pulled off.

Well organised and had the jump on everybody. Its not really surprising how quickly a flourishing manufacturing economy could turn out vehicles and armaments if they wished to while being largely ignored by the rest of the world. Would be much more difficult now though.

If you talk about how wars are won I would guess information is quite handy and since the war's end has become paramount.

[cochyn]

Stalin had fucked the army pre war by decimating its top bods in the show trials. Add to that his orders that stopped them mobilising as the Germans built up on the border. He still believed they wouldn't attack and the pact they had would hold.

 

Even fucked off to his dacha waiting for the top generals to get rid of him but they turned up capbhim hand the next day snd asked him to cone back.

 

Where he was very fucking clever was when he got on the radio and called for a great Patriotic war. He never pushed it as a war on Communism and a war on the Motherland.

 

The Russians hobbled themselves with the show trials for sure. My understanding was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - whilst on the face of it a non-aggression treaty between the Nazis and the Soviets- was just a place-holder. Under the terms of the pact they supplied the Nazis with raw materials in exchange for the latest Nazi materiel and technical know how (including detailed plans for the Bismarck). 

 

This exchange allowed the Soviets to use newly-acquired Nazi engineering know-how to massively ramp up the production of their own armaments and materiel and re-organize their armies.  To wit, they had the beginnings of a massive war machine ready to rumble from 1941 - if not the trained manpower to deliver it effectively. Hence the massive losses in the first six months following Operation Barbarossa.

 

Quite who this was intended to be mobilised against is quite the question: History says Big Joe Stalin knew the Nazis would come for him eventually and so he put contingencies in place. I suspect however, his primary objective was to have enough firepower to stand up against whichever enemy came at him first.

[s(k)aturation]

It's staggering when you think of what the Germans nearly pulled off.

 

 

The "Germans" (Barbarians) overthrew the biggest empire in the history of Europe around 400AD.

 

Prior to that, "Germans" (Angles and Franks) laid the foundations for England and France

 

From around 400, "German" power and influence in Europe was paramount for 1500 years.  

 

Saxons, Vikings, Habsburgs etc...

 

The harnessing of an Aryan "will" throughout "modern" European history has been a common thread, and Germany almost pulling off what they did in World War II had precedent.

 

Had a flighty paranoid crackpot not been the overseer - along with the menagerie of drug-addled weirdos he had around him - who knows, they might have succeeded.

[KopOut]

This seems to be the crux of it all. The combination of the British,US and Soviets was key to pulling off victory.

Timing is everything. Crucially, Norway was occupied by Germany to keep the iron ore flowing to Germany. All accomplished before ‘41 when Hitler backstabbed Stalin.

 

A British/Russian co-op in Norway could have throttled Germany early.

 

No steel no war.

[Lee909]

The Russians hobbled themselves with the show trials for sure. My understanding was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - whilst on the face of it a non-aggression treaty between the Nazis and the Soviets- was just a place-holder. Under the terms of the pact they supplied the Nazis with raw materials in exchange for the latest Nazi materiel and technical know how (including detailed plans for the Bismarck).

 

This exchange allowed the Soviets to use newly-acquired Nazi engineering know-how to massively ramp up the production of their own armaments and materiel and re-organize their armies. To wit, they had the beginnings of a massive war machine ready to rumble from 1941 - if not the trained manpower to deliver it effectively. Hence the massive losses in the first six months following Operation Barbarossa.

 

Quite who this was intended to be mobilised against is quite the question: History says Big Joe Stalin knew the Nazis would come for him eventually and so he put contingencies in place. I suspect however, his primary objective was to have enough firepower to stand up against whichever enemy came at him first.

I still believe Stalin plan was to wait out the war in Europe. He probably(amd rightfully at the time) thought the battle for France would have been a slog and then likely expected either a invasion of Britain or a British Surrender. And while this happened started a military build up. I think the French collapse took everyone by shock and sped things up. It might actually have saved the war. Had the Germans had to wait another year for the invasion they may well have had 9 or so quiet months with Western Europe under thumb and allowed a proper build up of supply lines for the upcoming invasion.

[Lee909]

 

 

A British/Russian co-op in Norway could have throttled Germany early.

 

No steel no war.

 

Possibly but the Soviets had just come off having been twatted by the Fins. They may have won the winter war in the end but they took a hell of a beating achieving it. Not sure if they were in a position the go up against the Germans.