UKIP

[Lee909]

So its just a coincidence then that all these views are shared by those running on behalf of UKIP.

[VladimirIlyich]

So its just a coincidence then that all these views are shared by those running on behalf of UKIP.

And the Tory party too. They are just a bit more experienced at covering it up.

Have to say too that the LibDems share the blame for some of this by creating a vacuum that needs to be filled and odious right wing twats are filling it.

[Anubis]

My rivals should be hanged for treason, says Ukip candidate

 

Politicians from Britain’s three main political parties should be hanged and their voters tried for treason, a Ukip candidate has said.

 

Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat politicians have committed Britain to “slavery inside the EU dictatorship” and should be punished by death, Gordon Ferguson told prospective voters in a letter delivered ahead of Thursday's council elections.

 

Anybody who votes for those parties is “guilty by association of treason against our nation”, he added.

 

Nigel Farage has complained his party faces far tougher scrutiny than its rivals after a string of Ukip candidates were exposed making offensive, racist and eccentric comments. He said on Friday: “All anyone wants to talk about is the idiots in Ukip.”

 

Mr Ferguson wrote: “The Lib-Lab-Cons have conspired with a foreign power, the EU, and are all thereby guilty of treason. They have sold Britain, which is the fifth largest economy, illegally into increasing slavery inside the EU dictatorship. Those responsible should be hung by the neck until dead.”

 

 

He went on: “As likely as not, however, they will never be brought to account because our senior police, Crown Prosecution Service and judges are almost all exclusively freemasons, and Britain’s courts have been utterly corrupt for many years. They are almost all in the pocket of the EU.

 

Mr Ferguson, who is running for Cambridge ward in Southport, Lancashire, added: “If you vote for any of the three Lib- Lab- Con- parties you will be aiding and abetting them and you will also be guilty by association of treason against our nation. No-one should knowingly support a corrupt organisation.”

 

The letter complains of a plot between the three main parties, the European Union, the banks, the energy companies and local councils to "impoverish us and reduce our ability to resist".

 

Mr Ferguson, who runs a rest home for the elderly in the town, declined to say which individual politicians he would like hanged.

 

But he told the Telegraph he stands by his call for the death penalty for those he considers traitors for leading Britain into the EU, saying: “That is the old English law, is it not?"

 

Asked whether he thought his rivals’ voters should also hang, the softly-spoken Mr Ferguson said: “If that is the law of the land, that should apply.” The decision is for judges, not him he added.

 

He added: “I want them to think about the implications of them supporting an organisation that is not working in the interests of the British people.”

 

Mr Ferguson said he had revised subsequent pieces of election literature after receiving negative feedback from friends.

 

“By being so forthright, maybe that was not wise,” he conceded, adding: “I would hate to be an embarrassment to Nigel Farage. I have the greatest respect for him.”

 

The death penalty for treason was abolished in 1998.

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10839448/My-rivals-should-be-hanged-for-treason-says-Ukip-candidate.html

 

 

One can only assume that the British Public view the forthcoming elections much as they view Britain's Got Talent, which would explain why UKIP are ahead in the polls.

[Stu Monty]

It's called not believe something without compelling evidence to do so. I don't know where you get the idea that I haven't looked into it, I have, and I've found nothing definitive.

 

The use of "It sounds like" and "I can imagine" gave off the impression you weren't really that sure, hence not really looked into whether it actually was just Tory rhetoric or was based on something. Say, a select committee report om immigration for instance.

 

Would you have no problem demonising the stupid, lazy people who have read the report on immigration Section cited and came to the same conclusions then?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

And the Tory party too. They are just a bit more experienced at covering it up.

Have to say too that the LibDems share the blame for some of this by creating a vacuum that needs to be filled and odious right wing twats are filling it.

As do Labour, for... well, for just not being a true labour party.  It's their job to offer an alternative to neo-liberal capitalism, to austerity, to racism, etc.  Instead, they've been (either actively or passively) complicit in just about everything the Tories have set out to do.  They are almost as culpable a bunch of enablers as those empty suits in yellow ties.

[Strontium]

The use of "It sounds like" and "I can imagine" gave off the impression you weren't really that sure, hence not really looked into whether it actually was just Tory rhetoric or was based on something. Say, a select committee report om immigration for instance.

 

Would you have no problem demonising the stupid, lazy people who have read the report on immigration Section cited and came to the same conclusions then?

 

I don't like the word "demonising", but I wouldn't agree with anyone who picked a single report and based their opinion on it; you should look at many reports and see if there's any kind of consensus.

[xerxes]

The " racist" smear of those who fear the negative ongoing effects of mass immigration is feeding UKIP.

 

There can be little doubt that immigration over the past decade has driven down wages at the unskilled end of the jobs market, It is simple supply and demand economics. Furthermore, the poor who are already here, feel the effects hardest as scant resources are stretched further by newcomers. Immigration is not a race issue, it is a poverty issue.

 

If you are a Tory toff, ongoing mass immigration means cheaper chauffeurs, gardeners and cleaners. If you are a recently arrived Somali, it means fewer language classes, schools with more cultures to try to assimilate, and lower job prospects, with such vacancies as there are offering lower wages.

 

UKIP represent a threat to Labour who have royally fucked up on immigration (the labour toffs are no different to the tory toffs)and whose working class vote is increasingly disaffected as it does to the Tory vote on Europe.

 

Like it or not, the simple claims that mass immigration and loss of national sovereignty through EU membership  are bad for Britain resonates with a significant tract of reasonable people. Neither party has ever adequately explained how the Common Market ( membership of which would get 99% approval) has morphed into the United States of Europe, which probably enjoys support of only a marginal majority in this country.

[stringvest]

An interesting post in full Xerxes, and describes the basis for what should be the debate.

[PestiRed]

The strange thing is that, despite theory, it seems no one has ever found empirical data to prove that there is anything other than a marginal effect on wages or employment rates of natives due to an influx of immigrants. Recently the Tories tried to hide their own findings when it turned out that they did not back up the idea that British people were losing jobs to immigrants

[Section_31]

The strange thing is that, despite theory, it seems no one has ever found empirical data to prove that there is anything other than a marginal effect on wages or employment rates of natives due to an influx of immigrants. Recently the Tories tried to hide their own findings when it turned out that they did not back up the idea that British people were losing jobs to immigrants

 

A lot of it is kind of common sense though isn't it? 

 

Overall wages might not be driven down, but then a recent report recently claimed one in ten people in England is a millionaire. I don't know any myself, but either it's total bollocks, or the calculations have been done by factoring in Roman Abramovich et al's vast wealth and dividing it up among the people. A lot of economic figures being bandied around simply have no impact on the realities of people living in vast parts of the North West, I don't understand why people need reports and findings in The Independent to tell them that, why can't they simply take a walk around? 

 

Overall wages in Britain probably are stable, but that doesn't tell the story at the bottom. Ask anyone who works on a building site if their wages have been impacted and see what they say.

 

The reality to my mind is this. Big business rules. The farmer gets screwed over by Tesco and Morrisons which have built their economic model on being cheap and convenient, so the farmer pays bottom dollar for labour so he can make some kind of living. He advertises for parsnip pickers for minimum wage to work 12 hour shifts, the locals quite rightly can't be arsed with that. Now, in times gone by, the farmer would have had to say 'okay, I'll put the wages up, improve the conditions or lower the workload', but now he doesn't have to. He's got an army of foreign labour out there willing to do it.

 

The reason that foreign labour is willing to do it is because they're on shit wages where they're from, not that their work ethic is superior. The average wage in Poland in 2004 was around about £150 a month. So even on minimum wage here they'd be pulling in around eight times that. That's like me going to Poland and getting eight grand a month for picking spud. I'd do it in a heartbeat, even if it was short term, I bet most people would.

 

Problem is. There's an elephant in the room now. The model is basically undercutting wages and conditions so the big business can continue its fucking good screw, so how do you get around that? You put the farmer on the telly and get him to laud the amazing work ethic of the eastern europeans, while besmirching the locals. "I've got jobs but nobody will do them!". No, what you really mean - as has been the case since the dawn of time - 'Nobody will do them for THESE wages'.

 

The supply/demand wage relationship has been completely severed and the eastern european labour pot is basically the gun to the head of anyone who isn't prepared to shovel shit for minimum wage. Many of these people who are suffering because of this, probably don't even know how to articulate it, they just know they're not happy, and that finds expression in things like UKIP. The tragedy is it's become a bigger issue than it needed to be, this never needed to be a bout immigration or race, it just needed to be about being sensible, having sensible levels of immigration and giving our own low paid workforce a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. As ever though, this is never a priority in this country, and now we're reaping the whirlwind - again.  

[PestiRed]

Section, I agree it makes sense but no bugger seems capable of proving that it has happened. The paper below is lengthy but covers most of the discussion quite well and is generally readable without a PHD in Economics

 

 

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/reports/WA_Final_Final.pdf

[Strontium]

There can be little doubt that immigration over the past decade has driven down wages at the unskilled end of the jobs market, It is simple supply and demand economics.

Not when you have a minimum wage it isn't. If 100,000 Romanians came here tomorrow, wages at the bottom end would be identical to what they were today.

 

If you are a Tory toff, ongoing mass immigration means cheaper chauffeurs, gardeners and cleaners.

Are you telling me that only Toffs will ever need the services of a gardener, cleaner, plumber, builder?

 

If you are a recently arrived Somali, it means fewer language classes, schools with more cultures to try to assimilate, and lower job prospects, with such vacancies as there are offering lower wages.

"Fewer language classes", or "More opportunities for language teachers", as I would refer to it.

 

The unemployment rate is falling and more people are employed in Britain than at any time in history, but we're supposed to believe that immigration is having a negative effect on employment prospects. It's the politics of ignorance.

 

Neither party has ever adequately explained how the Common Market ( membership of which would get 99% approval) has morphed into the United States of Europe, which probably enjoys support of only a marginal majority in this country.

Quite simply, it hasn't.

[Strontium]

The strange thing is that, despite theory, it seems no one has ever found empirical data to prove that there is anything other than a marginal effect on wages or employment rates of natives due to an influx of immigrants. Recently the Tories tried to hide their own findings when it turned out that they did not back up the idea that British people were losing jobs to immigrants

Who needs evidence when we have "common sense", eh.

 

 

Overall wages might not be driven down, but then a recent report recently claimed one in ten people in England is a millionaire. I don't know any myself, but either it's total bollocks, or the calculations have been done by factoring in Roman Abramovich et al's vast wealth and dividing it up among the people.

It's one in ten households, and I'm sure they're referring to paper wealth. When you consider the price of property in many parts of the country, it's not hard to envisage those kind of figures. I would know several families with that kind of paper wealth, and I'd struggle to describe them as "rich".

[Stu Monty]

The unemployment rate is falling and more people are employed in Britain than at any time in history, but we're supposed to believe that immigration is having a negative effect on employment prospects. It's the politics of ignorance.

 

 

Quite simply, it hasn't.

 

Jesus, what the fuck is that? Does someone want a medal for the population increasing?

 

Dog, given that people who agree with a select committee's findings are apparently into "the politics of ignorance" do you want to point me in the direction of the many studies you've looked into that state otherwise. I would like to reduce my ignorance.

[RedRazor]

"UKIP the peoples party - let's cause a political earthquke"

 

Yes please.

 

Loving it.

[lifetime fan]

 

[RedRazor]

On the basis that the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

 

 

Go Nige.

 

 

Earthquake. Earthquake.

[Stu Monty]

Who is your enemy?

[RedRazor]

Who is your enemy?

The political establishment in this sense. Those elected and unelected people who make all the real decisions behind closed doors and then send it out to the legions of media trained career politicians to sell it to us in the name of whatever party they represent. I hope UKIP put the fear of god into the lot of them and then - and only then - they may start to take note of what the people of this country are really saying and thinking. Probably as close to a revolution as the people of Britain will get in my lifetime. Feels a bit exciting.

 

And before you ask I'm not interested in any of UKIPs policies as they will never gain the power to implement any of them. Just a means to an end for me.

[Anubis]

It's all good fun voting for some fruitloops to go and unleash havoc on the European Parliament. History suggests people aren't going to do it in a general election.

[Jairzinho]

Unfortunately, for them, when your core vote is mongs, believe it or not, there simply aren't enough of them in each constituency.

[RedRazor]

Unfortunately, for them, when your core vote is mongs, believe it or not, there simply aren't enough of them in each constituency.

I don't think they have a real core vote. They are a protest party who will fade away in a few years time. I reckon their support is a measure of how pissed off people are with the other three parties.Which is very.

[VladimirIlyich]

I don't think they have a real core vote. They are a protest party who will fade away in a few years time. I reckon their support is a measure of how pissed off people are with the other three parties.Which is very.

Two parties is how its viewed now.

[lifetime fan]

Wankers have a banner ad on here now.

[xerxes]

Strontium Dog, I reply to your reply without multi-quoting which could become confusing.

 

You state that the minimum wage protects mass immigration from supressing wage inflation. I disagree. Firstly the minimum wage is not a living wage, buying a house or running a car on it for instance, as a sole earner is impossible. Mass immigration has driven wage inflation down to poverty levels. Look at how the richest,and poorest, have done over the past five years. Zero hours contracts are again a feature of oversupply of labour. The effect of 100,000 Romanians ( or anyone, Nigel) coming here would be more zero hours contracts, and more suppression of wages as the rich get richer.

 

I am not saying that only Tory toffs need unskilled/semi-skilled labour. I am saying that the rich benefit from cheap labour.

 

Mass immigration of unskilled labour DOES put a strain on basic care provision. Why employ more EFL teachers when you could be up-skilling the existing workforce? You are right that unemployment falling. You are wrong to claim that those who fear the adverse effect of mass immigration on employment are ignorant. It is exactly the mistake the Tories and Labour have made and is bolstering UKIP support. A significant factor in the falling unemployment rates are the draconian cuts to JSA terms. That has resulted in many becoming self- employed ( the number is at a record level), many of whom in turn are earning very little, some simply going off the radar into the black economy for six months, and others being forced to take jobs that are paying less than they would have received on benefits, often zero hours part time work. The idea that mass immigration has heralded some brave new world of fuller employment for the low and semi –skilled is nonsense.

 

Your claim that the EU has not morphed, un-voted for,from a Common Market to a federation with many powers removed from nations to the centre is simply wrong. The only debate is whether that is or is not a good thing.

 

My own views? I think that immigration is a good, and natural thing. In the case of the UK it also reflects how much we have right as a country. But self-evidently no society can take uncontrolled mass immigration, as, at some point, the very things that made it so attractive in the first place, are undermined. I am also pro-European, the idea that we can return to some sort of Colonial era is rubbish. Bluntly, we are now crap at world trade, and a significant part of that trade reflects EU standards. I also think that significant decision making regarding UK life and money is made by unaccountable bureaucrats who do not do a very good job.

 

I know a few UKIP activists, they are mostly barmy. But when Clegg dismisses those worried about the EU as “unpatriotic” and Vaz dismisses those worried about mass immigration as racist, they become the standard bearers for Farage- he wouldn’t exist without them.