Our Attack

[3 Stacks]

9 minutes ago, Elite said:

In a nutshell.

 

There aren't many players that are able to create a shitload of chances and are equally as clinical. We were blessed with prime Mane and Salah, who weren't snipers but were able to put away a large percentage of what they created.

 

I often think when we see clubs spend 100m on a forward they must think that's the sort of player that can win them matches on their own.

 

The business we've done is way smarter; we've found forwards who generally were productive on their own at their former clubs, and had the mentality where Klopp could improve them. So we pay like 40m and they become much better players.

 

That's why Darwin is annoying. Yeah, strikers cost a lot now, but when we go on a limb on a player like that and pay a record fee, when we never really did that with forwards, you want a guy that will win you a big game with his talent, not just another volume shot monster.

[Mil-ing Around]

4 hours ago, Smell The Glove said:

I agree with a lot of this apart from the low block part. That's a weak point for Klopp and how narrow he plays. Also we can still win the league with these forwards, I'm not giving up on that with 7 games to go.

 

Somebody mentioned in another thread that Mane and Firmino missed loads as well and that's true but what they had compared to Diaz and Nunez was far more game intelligence.

 

I can make a case just about for Diaz under a new manager but Nunez has so many ugly aspects to his game I'm not sure what can be done if Klopp still hasn't polished him after 2 seasons.

 

Exactly. Of course Firmino and Mane missed chances, no attacker scores every chance. But just look at how they made opportunities for each other and the type of chances they missed compared to what our attackers miss now. It's night and day.

 

If Klopp, one of the best attacking managers in the world, can't get these guys to be ruthless attackers after 2 years, it's probably not going to happen for them. 

 

3 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

Yeah, posting the goal tally without context is dumb.

 

The attack is built under a very modern philosophy; take advantage of 5 subs by having 5 good options and have all 5 options (less so Gakpo, but he's still capable) be able to create shooting opportunites and chances on their own. Over the course of a season, that in theory allows you to score goals consistently, even if the finishing is not great, just by sheer volume of opportunities. And when you have forwards who can create stuff on their own, they're usually explosive enough to shoot and create from good areas as well, so that increases the goals as well.

 

Unfortunately though, in singular games and especially big games, you need people who are clinical. And you look at our record against big teams in England and in those games, they don't make it happen enough.

 

The idea was similar with Mané, Firmino and Salah and we would often say the same thing about the finishing anyway but they were just better overall players than the ones we have now. I just don't like any of them individually, except Gakpo, but he is the least effective of the 5. The compensation is we have 5 now instead of 3.

 

The reality is I'm not sure there's a fix. A player like Son who is always overperforming on the finishing, and you can count on that, is really rare.

 

 

 

Yeah I agree, Klopps job as a coach is to get these players in the positions for them to be threatening. Our system and tactics do that over and over. They have to then execute.

 

If anyone has ever watched the 15 minute  training videos the club allow the press to view you'll often see them playing 6v6 with full size goals, on a tiny pitch, to mimic situations like yesterday. Fast counters/transitions, out numbered defenders, forwards have to find the right pass to create a good quality opportunity to finish. It's drilled into them. And that's why Klopps was going mental yesterday. When the pressure is on, in real game situations, they can't do it. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Elite said:

In a nutshell.

 

There aren't many players that are able to create a shitload of chances and are equally as clinical. We were blessed with prime Mane and Salah, who weren't snipers but were able to put away a large percentage of what they created.

 

 

Yeah for sure, I'm not shitting on them. They are good players but they are not top class players. They've still done great this season but sadly Arsenal aren't going to magically fall away, that squad is young enough to be around for another 5 years. City won't fall off a cliff and other clubs are also improving. If we want to continue what Klopp has built we probably should just cash in on 2 or 3 of them now. 

 

Everything behind the attack is in good/decent shape. If we can find higher quality forwards with better intelligence and better football brains we should just do it now. It'll keep us right up there with City and Arsenal in the coming years. I'm expecting a dip when Klopp leaves anyway but my fear is we persist with them and hope they come good and that could leave us much further behind.

 

[Code]

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 hours ago, Mil-ing Around said:

 

And your fucking stupid if you think Klopp isn't the big factor for us being right up there.

 

Not sure if you got the news but he's leaving and he ain't taking the attackers on holiday with him.

 

You're also dumb if you think the next guy is going to get this team to perform at that level next season. 

 

The problem here is not the amount of goals we score or the quality of our shooting (although that needs improving). It's how we create the chances to score.

 

United are a mess. We played against a shit back 4 yesterday and a dog shit goal keeper. We broke on them multiple times in 2 games, we had extra players, out numbered them, but we couldn't even put a chance on a plate for someone to finish.

 

I didnt post this thread 4 months ago because I knew it would happen in these two games against United. It was pretty obvious back then and now it's being highlighted.

 

Against a low block they struggle and even in an open game like last night, they struggle. They lack composure, ability and decision making. They don't see the right pass at the right time, don't make the correct runs and don't have the football brains to carve out really good chances for each other.

 

You want to win the big prizes and be one of the best teams in the world? Well this attack ain't getting you to that level. They aren't bad players but they aren't great players. And if you want to win leagues and champions leagues consistently you need great players. 

Of course. Jürgen Klopp scored most of our goals and all the players he signed are shite.  This is why we never win anything and never will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tit.

[Smell The Glove]

5 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Of course. Jürgen Klopp scored most of our goals and all the players he signed are shite.  This is why we never win anything and never will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tit.

But he didn't say any of that. I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether we persist with the forwards we have with a new manager.

 

Klopp is the best manager out there for forwards to play under. It's no coincidence that forwards thrive under him and in a lot of cases regress when they leave him. Our XG has not been the greatest this season and in Darwin's case it's really poor. We have a big decision potentially looming with Salah. Do we go again with Darwin when in 2 seasons under a manager renowned for getting the best out of forwards, he's underwhelmed.

 

Missing chances against bottom half teams doesn't really matter because chances normally just keep coming along. Against rivals it's crucial you take those chances and when you are beating teams by a full goal XG and in some cases more but only drawing it's right to ask is Diaz good enough, is Darwin good enough.

[Lee909]

25 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Of course. Jürgen Klopp scored most of our goals and all the players he signed are shite.  This is why we never win anything and never will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tit.

 

[lebron]

53 minutes ago, Code said:

 

 

This was the second most egregious moment of the match. Any chance you can dig up Mo's miss from 4 yards out following Diaz' powderpuff shot?

 

Just kidding. 

 

I agree with some of the sentiments in the opening post, and much of what has been written over the last two pages in that our attackers aren't composed or game-intelligent enough. Apart from Neymar-Suarez-Messi, our trio of MFS was unique in terms of understanding each others game though. I said when Mane and Firmino left that that was the peak of attacking play that we could hope to see, and I'm extremely grateful for having seen them wreak havoc home and abroad (sigh).

 

I'll end on a positive note. Our current front three have stepped up their pressing game since the start of the season, probably aided by Endo's and Mac Allister's positioning. Casemiro's no-look overhead kick was the first time in a while where we gave up space similar to that of last year with Hendo and Fab chasing shadows.

[Baltar]

If we had a prime Owen, Fowler, Torres or Suarez we'd piss the league this season. Our forwards are criminally wasteful.

[Lee909]

In most games the forwards we have when we have 5 fit are fine. 

Teams couldn't live with them when we could make the subs halfway through the second half.  The issue has always been in the biggest games at the biggest moments they can often not be clinical enough. Its not even that they don't get enough chances in the big games as we always seem to create at least 3 or 4 good chances. 

 

We are just outscoring our XG( for what its worth,im sceptical out the whole XG data) with expected 2.20 a game and scoring 2.32 a game but compare that to Arsenal expected 1.85 to scoring 2.42.

 

We tend to make life dificult for ourselves though by not killing teams off and making mistakes in the biggest games. We have not put teams away we should

 

Arsenal at home

City at Home

mancs Home and Away

Brighton away

Luton away

[an tha]

1 hour ago, Code said:

 

Diaz should probably be scoring with his left foot before it even happens IMO

[Lee909]

3 minutes ago, an tha said:

Diaz should probably be scoring with his left foot before it even happens IMO

 

They are all the same on their weaker foot. None of them want to shoot or cross. I said this the other week its nuts how top pro's seem so unwilling to do it. Its simple there, one touch and hit it across the keeper. At worst he is palming the ball back out for a tap in

[Mil-ing Around]

2 hours ago, Code said:

 

 

That's it in a nutshell. Perfectly describes my point. And it's not just Nunez btw, Diaz probably wouldn't see that pass either or he'd cut back inside and try and shoot with his right foot.

 

1 hour ago, Smell The Glove said:

But he didn't say any of that. I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether we persist with the forwards we have with a new manager.

 

Klopp is the best manager out there for forwards to play under. It's no coincidence that forwards thrive under him and in a lot of cases regress when they leave him. Our XG has not been the greatest this season and in Darwin's case it's really poor. We have a big decision potentially looming with Salah. Do we go again with Darwin when in 2 seasons under a manager renowned for getting the best out of forwards, he's underwhelmed.

 

Missing chances against bottom half teams doesn't really matter because chances normally just keep coming along. Against rivals it's crucial you take those chances and when you are beating teams by a full goal XG and in some cases more but only drawing it's right to ask is Diaz good enough, is Darwin good enough.

 

No point in replying to him mate, he hasn't got a clue.

 

The minute someone posted the league table or stats you just know they don't have a fucking clue about what some of us are saying here.

 

He'll even watch that video code posted above and think "oh well maybe next time"

 

1 hour ago, lebron said:

 

This was the second most egregious moment of the match. Any chance you can dig up Mo's miss from 4 yards out following Diaz' powderpuff shot?

 

Just kidding. 

 

I agree with some of the sentiments in the opening post, and much of what has been written over the last two pages in that our attackers aren't composed or game-intelligent enough. Apart from Neymar-Suarez-Messi, our trio of MFS was unique in terms of understanding each others game though. I said when Mane and Firmino left that that was the peak of attacking play that we could hope to see, and I'm extremely grateful for having seen them wreak havoc home and abroad (sigh).

 

I'll end on a positive note. Our current front three have stepped up their pressing game since the start of the season, probably aided by Endo's and Mac Allister's positioning. Casemiro's no-look overhead kick was the first time in a while where we gave up space similar to that of last year with Hendo and Fab chasing shadows.

 

People think I'm bashing this attack and I think they are all totally shit. They aren't. They are good players but not great players or potentially great players. They have qualities and work fucking hard and play with a passion that I admire.

 

We might even win the league with them, it's definitely not over.

 

Our issue with them is Arsenal are good, really good, solid defence, good tactics, decent midfield and good wide forwards. All at a good age. They aren't going away. While City have pep they won't drop off, even after he left Barca, the tactics and philosophy he installed helped the next two managers keep that consistency and success. They aren't going away.

 

We know how high the levels are going to be here for the next few years, we've been part of it already. You have to be bloody good to win this league and dangerous in attack to create a constant threat to worry your opponents, wins games and put pressure on everyone else.

 

We are scraping through games at times, we don't look good in lots of moments and "largely" it's because our attack doesn't kill teams off and have a synergy that is a constant threat. Arsenal have it. City have it. We don't. If it was all down to coaching you could get any player from any club and make him brilliant and effective. You can't. 

[an tha]

4 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

 

They are all the same on their weaker foot. None of them want to shoot or cross. I said this the other week its nuts how top pro's seem so unwilling to do it. Its simple there, one touch and hit it across the keeper. At worst he is palming the ball back out for a tap in

I think salah in diaz's position there scores - i appreciate salah is left footed so not your point of course...

 

I do find it a bit strange that top players tend to lack confidence in their 'weaker' foot.

[Kevin D]

32 minutes ago, an tha said:

Diaz should probably be scoring with his left foot before it even happens IMO

I agree, but decision making is not really his thing.

[Jose Jones]

1 hour ago, an tha said:

I think salah in diaz's position there scores - i appreciate salah is left footed so not your point of course...

 

I do find it a bit strange that top players tend to lack confidence in their 'weaker' foot.

I don’t mind the pass from Diaz, it was like the ball was a bit stuck under his feet so he didn’t want to shoot. Fair enough he should be better there but it wasn’t a terrible option.

Darwin didn’t even need to pass it to Dom either, he should have just cut in onto his right and blammed it in.

[an tha]

3 hours ago, lebron said:

 

Casemiro's no-look overhead kick was the first time in a while where we gave up space similar to that of last year with Hendo and Fab chasing shadows.

"Chasing" suggests running was involved on their parts....

[Fugitive]

This is from the fella that reckons Elliott is a Championship level player.

 

Ha

[Barrington Womble]

16 hours ago, TheSire said:

I just think we never look relaxed in front of goal, it seems frantic where they're either just hitting pot shots or hesitating or not committing to the strike and hitting it like a feather like salah does.

 

We're also pretty poor at creating anything from within the box, we just keep going sideways and every players is taking 4 touches when the massive key is actually just hitting it early so the keeper doesn't have time to set his feet before he dives.

 

I think we have not found ways to score goals. When we had robbo and Trent in wide areas putting in great crosses, loads of outside in runs from mane and Salah, firminos movement creating space, we had our ways to score, so when the chance presented itself, the players had seen it all before, so had more of a calmness in front of goal or the last pass. I think we're still finding that with this team. While most of the forwards have had a little longer here, the midfield is new and we seem to have given up on the idea of scoring from crosses from full backs. And even byond the midfield being new, our most creative play is Macca, who's changed position half way through the season and the other potential 2 in Jones and Dom have missed large chunks of the middle part of the season h which has also coincided with Trent in his new role being out.  Seeing that last minute goal against Sheffield was unusual, but it was a flash back to the old team. The problem we have now, is the chances we're creating are nearly all a product of what is happening in game rather than what we've created on the traing field. Or that's how it seems to me. 

 

The problem of course is we're likely to start again in the summer. The plus side is it seems unlikely it would make these lads worse, because they're just finding a way as it is now. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Mil-ing Around said:

 

That's it in a nutshell. Perfectly describes my point. And it's not just Nunez btw, Diaz probably wouldn't see that pass either or he'd cut back inside and try and shoot with his right foot.

 

 

No point in replying to him mate, he hasn't got a clue.

 

The minute someone posted the league table or stats you just know they don't have a fucking clue about what some of us are saying here.

 

He'll even watch that video code posted above and think "oh well maybe next time"

 

 

People think I'm bashing this attack and I think they are all totally shit. They aren't. They are good players but not great players or potentially great players. They have qualities and work fucking hard and play with a passion that I admire.

 

We might even win the league with them, it's definitely not over.

 

Our issue with them is Arsenal are good, really good, solid defence, good tactics, decent midfield and good wide forwards. All at a good age. They aren't going away. While City have pep they won't drop off, even after he left Barca, the tactics and philosophy he installed helped the next two managers keep that consistency and success. They aren't going away.

 

We know how high the levels are going to be here for the next few years, we've been part of it already. You have to be bloody good to win this league and dangerous in attack to create a constant threat to worry your opponents, wins games and put pressure on everyone else.

 

We are scraping through games at times, we don't look good in lots of moments and "largely" it's because our attack doesn't kill teams off and have a synergy that is a constant threat. Arsenal have it. City have it. We don't. If it was all down to coaching you could get any player from any club and make him brilliant and effective. You can't. 

 

It's not just all about the forwards though. If we'd have conceded just 4 goals since the new year, nobody would be talking about our forwards. In January just about the whole of football was telling arsenal they needed a new clinical forward. They couldn't do that because of ffp, so instead they just tightened up in defence, took even less chances in possession and worked hard on set pieces to get them the goals they were struggling to find. Not giving up goals gave them the platform for everything else. Our issues are at both ends of the pitch and in fact we create so many chances it means we've still managed to find a way to be top on 30 games and level on points with top after 31 with a team that's only got together really this season. The only real worry for me is we don't really seem to be improving in any aspects of our play. We still start games badly. We look vulnerable on crosses. We give away too many careless goals. We miss too many chances. With 7 games left, that's not going to change now. So for me it's why we need to get our best XI on the pitch in every league game left and do what we have most of the season and change the game into a bit of a chaotic mess where we try and win all our 1 on 1 battles all over the pitch. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, Mil-ing Around said:

No point in replying to him mate, he hasn't got a clue.

 

The minute someone posted the facts indicating what's actually happening in the real world  you just know they don't have a fucking clue about what some of us are saying here.

 

 

[Trevorjc]

Jota is the best finisher at the club but misses too many games. If he was available on Sunday we win that by 2 or 3 goals.

[Carra_is_legend]

10 hours ago, an tha said:

Diaz should probably be scoring with his left foot before it even happens IMO

 

Probably, but a Nunez cut back to Dom is as guaranteed you can get for a goal. Even my 13 year old son was going mental when Nunez failed to do that. Klopp must be going totally mental. 

[Jairzinho]

10 hours ago, Kevin D said:

I agree, but decision making is not really his thing.

 

I actually thought it was a rare good decision from him to pass the ball. He isn't a clinical finisher with his right foot so taking shot with his left would have been an even worse decision. He passed it to someone who could have played an easy cut back to someone who had an open goal.

 

Sadly, our issue is that expecting two good decisions in a row from our forwards is simply out of the question.

[Pidge]

12 hours ago, Code said:

 

 

Still think Diaz should be hammering a shot across goal (although to be fair the pass holds up a bit more than I remember). Two players following in, I think that's what Nunez is anticipating as well, slows ever so slightly before then having to speed up to get to the pass.

 

On the whole I'm not too worried. We need John back on the pod to give some perspective on our attacking unit. We're so wasteful, but it's margins really. Diaz (although stretching), Dom (from Robbo) and Mo all fluffed much clearer chances than the above. Those were much more about just not doing the right thing, technically. 

[joe_fishfish]

13 hours ago, Code said:

 

Watch Diaz after he plays it across for Darwin, runs away from goal despite no one taking up the central position. If he runs towards the centre of the goal he gets a tap in.

[Code]

4 hours ago, joe_fishfish said:

Watch Diaz after he plays it across for Darwin, runs away from goal despite no one taking up the central position. If he runs towards the centre of the goal he gets a tap in.

Looks like he was getting ready to celebrate.