Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Pureblood]

1 minute ago, Mook said:

I said they were struggling to lay a glove, not that they hadn't.

 

Let's be honest, a half decent opposition would've fucked this tory shambles into next century.

They are half decent but the media, innit.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Mook said:

You have to bear in mind that this is by far the most inept tory government in living memory & Labour are still struggling to lay a glove on them.

Majority wiped out and more Parliamentary defeats than any Government for about a gazillion years. That's definitely a glove.

[Mook]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Majority wiped out and more Parliamentary defeats than any Government for about a gazillion years. That's definitely a glove.

See above.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Mudface said:

Yep- the reason the Tories won a majority in 2015 and most seats in 2017 is due to the collapse in Labour's Scottish vote. 

Which, in turn, was due to Labour cosying up to the Tories in a referendum,  giving full support to the Tories' vision of the Union, ignoring the concerns of those who want to leave the Union and failing to offer a progressive or Socialist case for remaining in the Union.

 

There's a reason why Labour aren't siding with Anna fucking Soubry.

[skend04]

Jesus! This Tory leadership race is fucking mental. You've got candidates publicly stating they will bypass democracy to uphold a fucking opinion poll. All whilst they're presumably off their tits on crystal meth. 

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

In the name of democracy, we are denying you more democracy because that’d be undemocratic. 

[Mudface]

28 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Jesus! This Tory leadership race is fucking mental. You've got candidates publicly stating they will bypass democracy to uphold a fucking opinion poll. All whilst they're presumably off their tits on crystal meth. 

 

 

 

Raab saying he's willing to suspend parliament so that time runs out and we leave with no deal is absolutely ridiculous, tin pot dictator stuff.

[M_B]

Bercow has already said it won't happen.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48541352

 

 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

3 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Raab saying he's willing to suspend parliament so that time runs out and we leave with no deal is absolutely ridiculous, tin pot dictator stuff.

 

Bercow, has already said that this would most certainly not be happening on his watch. 

[Mudface]

Good- in a properly functioning party, that should be the end of a prospective leader's candidature. Obviously with these clowns, it no doubt appeals to the likes of the ERG and the nutters amongst the membership.

 

 

[moof]

4 hours ago, Mook said:

You have to bear in mind that this is by far the most inept tory government in living memory & Labour are still struggling to lay a glove on them.

Does it really matter that much how inept they are when all the ruling class; establishment, media, corporations, banks, military, modern economy etc. are diametrically opposed to the labour movement, and democracy itself?

 

Its not a fair fight. The idea that Labour and Tories are starting from roughly the same base just doesn’t remotely ring true. Policy wise, and messaging, labour won that argument a long time ago. Getting that across to the majority of people is not so easy when the media-industrial complex is working hand in glove with the sitting government to steamroll you. 

[moof]

3 hours ago, Mook said:

I said they were struggling to lay a glove, not that they hadn't.

 

Let's be honest, a half decent opposition would've fucked this tory shambles into next century.

Completely disagree. Labour have been an effective opposition, whether people want to believe that or not. They’re the only reason we aren’t already jettisoned out of the eu and have a chance of correcting that course. All with the odds stacked hugely against them 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

10 minutes ago, moof said:

Does it really matter that much how inept they are when all the ruling class; establishment, media, corporations, banks, military, modern economy etc. are diametrically opposed to the labour movement, and democracy itself?

 

Its not a fair fight. The idea that Labour and Tories are starting from roughly the same base just doesn’t remotely ring true. Policy wise, and messaging, labour won that argument a long time ago. Getting that across to the majority of people is not so easy when the media-industrial complex is working hand in glove with the sitting government to steamroll you. 

I've just checked the BBC News website: still not a word about the US Secretary of State promising to stop a Corbyn Government being elected.

[Mook]

1 hour ago, moof said:

Does it really matter that much how inept they are when all the ruling class; establishment, media, corporations, banks, military, modern economy etc. are diametrically opposed to the labour movement, and democracy itself?

 

Its not a fair fight. The idea that Labour and Tories are starting from roughly the same base just doesn’t remotely ring true. Policy wise, and messaging, labour won that argument a long time ago. Getting that across to the majority of people is not so easy when the media-industrial complex is working hand in glove with the sitting government to steamroll you. 

I completely agree with all of that.

 

I still think Labour could be much stronger & clearer though. Half the PLP seem to want rid of Corbyn which doesn't help their cause internally.

[Section_31]

The Gove coke stuff was leaked allegedly by someone who used to work for him but now works for Raab.

 

The Tories have the exact same mindset as the mob. It's all about personal gain under the guise of being in a larger organisation (a family) but where you're always working the angles and watching your back.

 

Any single one of them would sell each other, their party, the country down the river for the right price. 

[moof]

2 minutes ago, Mook said:

I completely agree with all of that.

 

I still think Labour could be much stronger & clearer though. Half the PLP seem to want rid of Corbyn which doesn't help their cause internally.

Aye that’s fair mate. That kind of dissonance between competing “factions” never ends well. I thought they’d be able to unite behind getting rid of these disgusting Tory cunts, but it seems like many of them have a rather different set of goals 

[skend04]

https://mobile.twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1137689381639204865

 

Rafael Behr nails it in this.

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/eu-view-of-tory-leadership-candidates-deeply-critical-say-sources

 

Takedown of all the Tory hopefuls but willing to offer an extension for a GE or second referendum. This comment should be pertinent for anyone who is offering hopes to the British electorate of a renegotiation of the deal.

 

Lamberts warns that nothing will change for May’s successor, as the EU will refuse to reopen the withdrawal agreement, including the Irish backstop. “Anyone who steps into Downing Street will face exactly the same constraints. Saying you want to renegotiate this agreement is nice and well, but it won’t happen,” he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/no-renegotiation-withdrawal-agreement-french-minister

 

And again, no renegotiation. So when are the 2 main parties going to stop bullshitting their voters?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

58 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/eu-view-of-tory-leadership-candidates-deeply-critical-say-sources

 

Takedown of all the Tory hopefuls but willing to offer an extension for a GE or second referendum. This comment should be pertinent for anyone who is offering hopes to the British electorate of a renegotiation of the deal.

 

Lamberts warns that nothing will change for May’s successor, as the EU will refuse to reopen the withdrawal agreement, including the Irish backstop. “Anyone who steps into Downing Street will face exactly the same constraints. Saying you want to renegotiate this agreement is nice and well, but it won’t happen,” he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/no-renegotiation-withdrawal-agreement-french-minister

 

And again, no renegotiation. So when are the 2 main parties going to stop bullshitting their voters?

Did you read the article? It just says what everyone in the EU has been saying for the best part of a year - that there's no renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement unless there is a "new political line" in the UK .  A change of government would  (you'd be hard pushed to disagree) constitute a new political line.

 

There's no bullshit from Labour on this.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

14 hours ago, skend04 said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1137689381639204865

 

Rafael Behr nails it in this.

Not really, he says a lot of good stuff, however to say that remainers and leavers didn’t know what they were voting for is disingenuous. I knew what I was voting for when I voted Remain, everyone I know who had a vote knew what they were voting for.

 

This is a big part of the problem, people basically calling the electorate thick. 

 

 

[aRdja]

24 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Not really, he says a lot of good stuff, however to say that remainers and leavers didn’t know what they were voting for is disingenuous. I knew what I was voting for when I voted Remain, everyone I know who had a vote knew what they were voting for.

 

This is a big part of the problem, people basically calling the electorate thick. 

 

 

Especially since the European election result confirmed that a lot of people did know what they were voting for IMO. As much as I would like for my kids to be able to live and work anywhere he wants in EU countries, I’m not comfortable as a democrat to completely disregard the result of the referendum.

[skend04]

45 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Did you read the article? It just says what everyone in the EU has been saying for the best part of a year - that there's no renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement unless there is a "new political line" in the UK .  A change of government would  (you'd be hard pushed to disagree) constitute a new political line.

 

There's no bullshit from Labour on this.

C'mon mate, you're more intelligent than this. The new political line is a second referendum or GE. It's clearly there in the article. They would reconsider the Oct 31st deadline for one of these only otherwise we are out on Halloween.

 

There is no renegotiation of May's exit deal.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

48 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Not really, he says a lot of good stuff, however to say that remainers and leavers didn’t know what they were voting for is disingenuous. I knew what I was voting for when I voted Remain, everyone I know who had a vote knew what they were voting for.

 

This is a big part of the problem, people basically calling the electorate thick. 

 

 

It seems to be beyond the grasp of the commentariat that voters can have different opinions, but end up ticking the same box in an ill-conceived binary vote. The nature of the vote meant that, on one side, internationalist Socialists and trade unionists were voting the same way as Cameron and Campbell; on the other side, the heirs of Benn and Crow were ticking the same box as racists and Fascists.  For the most part, each person had a reasonable idea what they were voting for, but it conflicted strongly with others who were voting the same way. 

 

The Tories defined this binary choice. It's false and arbitrary and masks the real issues that people need to deal with.  We've all fallen for it, whichever way we voted. Anyone who agrees with us is hailed as possessing incredible powers of perception; anyone who disagrees with us is dismissed as a neoliberal shill/shit-thick racist.  And anyone who suggests that we shouldn't allow ourselves to be trapped in the mental rut the Tories created gets dismissed as sitting on the fence, secretly supporting one side or the other or just not knowing what they want.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

19 minutes ago, skend04 said:

C'mon mate, you're more intelligent than this. The new political line is a second referendum or GE. It's clearly there in the article. They would reconsider the Oct 31st deadline for one of these only otherwise we are out on Halloween.

 

There is no renegotiation of May's exit deal.

So how are Labour bullshitting anyone?

[magicrat]

2 hours ago, viRdjil said:

Especially since the European election result confirmed that a lot of people did know what they were voting for IMO. As much as I would like for my kids to be able to live and work anywhere he wants in EU countries, I’m not comfortable as a democrat to completely disregard the result of the referendum.

Brexit hasn't been delivered 3 years down the line and whether or not it should have been is a fair point. Delivering it now when all indicators suggest Remain would now win is compounding the issue. The 2016 result is now unsafe and the electorate should have a chance to reconsider. Given we are likely to have had 2 General Elections before Brexit is resolved it's crazy the referendum result is not put back to the people. Not doing so is a worse abuse of democracy than ploughing ahead .