Israel - A Rant

[Bjornebye]

8 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Actually I'm pretty sure lots of you have described yourselves as anti-Zionists.

Anti murder isn’t a crime. None of us are anti Semitic. Liar. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

I'll hold my hands up to being anti-(modern)zionism. 

 

That's because I won't allow myself to be hoodwinked into accepting things like colonisation, land grabs, arbitrarily enforced demolition orders and expulsions and illegal settlement building to be couched in much softer, nicey-nicey terms like "self determination" and "yearning for a homeland" etc, etc. 

 

The need for a Jewish state was fairly obvious, even though I don't necessarily agree with how it came to fruition. But, years later, with that Jewish state clearly being established, a genuine question needs to be asked - when and where does it end? The Jewish population around the world is still reproducing and that brings with it a desire from some non-Israeli born people to want to move to what they believe to be their ancestral home. When do we get to the point were fairness is applied and a Jewish person ftom Brooklyn, USA is told "sorry, there's no room left" rather than being allowed to waltz in and steal somebody else's land? 

[Numero Veinticinco]

I am an anti-Zionist. Just want to throw my hat in the ring there. I don’t believe in Jewish states, Islamic states, white states, Christian states, black states, or any state based on ethic or religious group identity. I wouldn’t support a ‘Islamic State of Palestine’ either. 
 

Also, anybody pretending that Zionism is simply the belief in a Jewish homeland (which now exists, and is a nuclear armed superpower) then they’re like those who think BLM is only about black lives mattering.

 

I believe in safety and security for individuals. I’m covered. I don’t need to be a Zionist to display I don’t hate Jews because they’re Jewish. Especially when what it means to be a Zionist clearly goes way beyond the original bounds. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I am an anti-Zionist. Just want to throw my hat in the ring there. I don’t believe in Jewish states, Islamic states, white states, Christian states, black states, or any state based on ethic or religious group identity. I wouldn’t support a ‘Islamic State of Palestine’ either. 
 

Also, anybody pretending that Zionism is simply the belief in a Jewish homeland (which now exists, and is a nuclear armed superpower) then they’re like those who think BLM is only about black lives mattering.

 

I believe in safety and security for individuals. I’m covered. I don’t need to be a Zionist to display I don’t hate Jews because they’re Jewish. Especially when what it means to be a Zionist clearly goes way beyond the original bounds. 

The only people who throw “Jews” into the debate are those who are looking for an alternative slant on a humane argument because it doesn’t suit them. If we are honest about it, it’s pure racism. “Death to Arabs” so Israel can prosper. Absolutely fucking disgusting behaviour and anyone defending it is a complete cunt. I will add, anyone defending Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas is also a cunt. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Strontium]

11 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I tend to swerve the word "Zionism" these days, because it's meaning gets blurry. To some, it just represents Jewish people living in a safe homeland; to others, it represents an ideological justification for violent racist atrocities.  Obviously, it's possible  (and I would say morally sound) to be "anti" the latter, but not the former.

 

No comment on the second part of my post?

 

It's probably wise to avoid the term then, yes. Zionism only ever means the bit in bold. Only Jews get to define what Zionism means, and attempts to twist it into something else are always by non-Jews.

 

I've got nothing to say about the second part of your post. I have no interest in the stupid bint either, and the only explicit video of her I want to see is one where she's parachuted into Gaza City with a DVD collection of her greatest hits.

 

44 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I am an anti-Zionist. Just want to throw my hat in the ring there. I don’t believe in Jewish states, Islamic states, white states, Christian states, black states, or any state based on ethic or religious group identity. I wouldn’t support a ‘Islamic State of Palestine’ either.

 

Hmm, well we have hundreds of other countries based largely on ethnic identity whose existence you seemingly have no issue with, but okay. I'd ideally prefer there was no segregation of people either, but at the same time I acknowledge the need for places where certain groups of people can be safe. So I don't think it's sexist to support women's refuges, for instance.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It's probably wise to avoid the term then, yes. Zionism only ever means the bit in bold. Only Jews get to define what Zionism means, and attempts to twist it into something else are always by non-Jews.

 

I've got nothing to say about the second part of your post. I have no interest in the stupid bint either, and the only explicit video of her I want to see is one where she's parachuted into Gaza City with a DVD collection of her greatest hits.

 

 

Hmm, well we have hundreds of other countries based largely on ethnic identity whose existence you seemingly have no issue with, but okay. I'd ideally prefer there was no segregation of people either, but at the same time I acknowledge the need for places where certain groups of people can be safe. So I don't think it's sexist to support women's refuges, for instance.

Do all those countries bomb the shit out of innocent civilians? No they don’t. 
 

But you know that 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

Zionism only ever means the bit in bold. Only Jews get to define what Zionism means, and attempts to twist it into something else are always by non-Jews.

That's not true. There are plenty of Jews who describe themselves as anti-Zionist, because they define Zionism by its modern violently racist incarnation. 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

Do all those countries bomb the shit out of innocent civilians? No they don’t. 
 

But you know that 

 

Yes, I think the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have waged war at some point in their history.

 

I know for a fact that the Israelis just love being lectured to by people from a country which killed more innocent civilians in a few days in Dresden than Israel has, ever.

 

If death concerns you so much, the list of ongoing conflicts will be quite useful to you:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

 

See you outside the Ethiopian embassy next week for a protest, yeah?

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Yes, I think the overwhelming majority of countries in the world have waged war at some point in their history.

 

I know for a fact that the Israelis just love being lectured to by people from a country which killed more innocent civilians in a few days in Dresden than Israel has, ever.

 

If death concerns you so much, the list of ongoing conflicts will be quite useful to you:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

 

See you outside the Ethiopian embassy next week for a protest, yeah?

I hate Britain as well. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

12 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It's just that a lot of us also think that Palestinians should have the right not only to self-determination, but also the right not to be forced out of their homes or be bombed and shot at by one of the most heavily armed military forces in the world. 

@Strontium Dog™ this is the second part of my post that you keep refusing to comment on. 

 

I can understand that it's easier to babble on about Champagne-swilling airheads, but you know that's just a deflection from the point.

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

@Strontium Dog™ this is the second part of my post that you keep refusing to comment on. 

 

I can understand that it's easier to babble on about Champagne-swilling airheads, but you know that's just a deflection from the point.

 

When I said everyone should have the right to self-determination and to feel safe in their territory, I wasn't excluding the Palestinians, if that's what you're asking. I rather thought that was taken as read.

[Numero Veinticinco]

13 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

Hmm, well we have hundreds of other countries based largely on ethnic identity whose existence you seemingly have no issue with, but okay. I'd ideally prefer there was no segregation of people either, but at the same time I acknowledge the need for places where certain groups of people can be safe. So I don't think it's sexist to support women's refuges, for instance.

Which countries and how do they, as a state, fall into that category I’m talking about? You said hundreds, but 10 will do. 

 

I have no issue with the existence of Israel, even if I have a large issue with how it happened and how it acts, as is seemingly reasonable. I just don’t think it should be a Jewish state. Therefore, I’m not a Zionist. Israel exists and is a superpower. I’m more than comfortable criticising it, as I am with any other nation. Also, your women’s shelter comparison is a very crude and inaccurate one. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

17 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

When I said everyone should have the right to self-determination and to feel safe in their territory, I wasn't excluding the Palestinians, if that's what you're asking. I rather thought that was taken as read.

That's the thing with you: the rights of Palestinians to live free from violent, racist aggression always goes without saying; it never goes with saying.

 

It's all a bit "All lives matter" isn't it.  People campaign for black lives - just as people campaign for Palestinian lives - because they're the ones under most direct, immediate and constant threat.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 I'd ideally prefer there was no segregation of people either, but at the same time I acknowledge the need for places where certain groups of people can be safe. So I don't think it's sexist to support women's refuges, for instance.

Historically, Jews in Europe have been unsafe (in Christendom, more so than in the Islamic world). There's no reason to suspect that that Jews in Europe or the Americas today would be any less safe than any other ethnic or religious minority.  Any appeal to the existence of a Jewish state as the only place of safety for Jewish people is bollocks: key drivers of migration to Israel are more likely to be economic and political instability, rather than anti-Semitic oppression. 

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/judaism-israel-and-diaspora-conference/.premium.MAGAZINE-immigration-to-israel-is-on-the-rise-thanks-to-these-non-jews-1.8026824

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Can we keep the Ethiopian whataboutery to the Africa thread, please? 

[Jairzinho]

 

[Jairzinho]

 

[Juniper]

Get a load of these knobs 

 

 

[SasaS]

 

[Captain Howdy]

4 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

I hate Britain as well. 

Yes, I think a fair amount of left wingers do, it’s one of the reasons they never trouble the ballot box.

[General Dryness]

5 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

I hate Britain as well. 

Internet Win Pointsfest!

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/senior-figures-attack-obstruction-of-iccs-palestine-investigation

[Captain Howdy]

1 hour ago, General Dryness said:

Internet Win Pointsfest!

Left wingers gonna left wing. They make it soooooo easy for the Conservatives they really do.

[SasaS]

FT on Netanyahu's attempts to survive the latest challenge.

https://www.ft.com/content/9623e57a-52fc-4c56-a2ca-c621fb33a930

(usually a pay wall unless accessed from social media)

 

Israel’s ‘Game of Thrones’ builds towards Netanyahu’s final act

Vote to install new government and oust long-serving premier within reach

In the last month, Israel has fought a war with Palestinian militants Hamas, seen its cities rocked by communal violence and tamped down protests in the occupied West Bank. At one point the conflict appeared to bolster Benjamin Netanyahu’s chances of clinging to power. But less than two weeks after a ceasefire, the Jewish state is gripped by political drama as an eclectic crew of opposition parties band together in the most serious attempt yet to oust the veteran prime minister. For Netanyahu, the stakes could not be higher — he has ruled Israel for 15 of the last 25 years, longer even than founder David Ben-Gurion, and has left an imprint of his brand of pugilistic, rightwing politicking on the nation.

Now a group of allies-turned-foes are plotting to depose him right in the middle of his trial for corruption, a charge that he denies, but that has weakened him politically. He [Netanyahu] will do more of the same — having a lot of rightwing pressure on Shaked to get her to disagree with the idea of this new government. Roni Rimon, political strategist The opposition has until midnight on Wednesday to pull together the first coalition of its kind in Israeli history, stretching across the political spectrum from the far left to the ultranationalist right, united in only one goal — the end of Netanyahu’s political career.

“It’s a bizarre situation,” said Roni Rimon, a veteran political strategist who ran Netanyahu’s 2009 election campaign. “Parties from the deep left, and parties from the deep right are gathering together, and all they have on their agenda is to take down Netanyahu.” If they succeed, Naftali Bennett, a 49-year old tech millionaire who is more rightwing than Netanyahu and controls only six seats in the 120-member Knesset, could be prime minister. He would step down two years later to be replaced by Yair Lapid, a jovial ex-television presenter who heads a centrist party with 17 seats. The gambit hinges on an Islamist dentist who has broken from the ranks of Israel’s Arab parties to play the role of tiebreaker — the four seats Mansour Abbas controls as the head of Ra’am are crucial to the complex mathematics of a minority government.

 “It’s really like the ‘Game of Thrones’, Israeli politics right now — no one could have predicted this,” said George Birnbaum, the lead strategist and pollster for Bennett’s campaign. “For an Islamist party to be forming a coalition with a guy like Naftali Bennett as prime minister is surreal — the truth is truly stranger than fiction.” Four elections in two years have left Israelis wary at the prospect of a fifth, if this coalition fails to take form. And even for a country that treats politics as its national sport, the permutations and combinations of this round of frenzied-back room horse-trading are exhausting. “Just end it, somehow. Finish it now,” said Avital Klein, 38, shopping for groceries while her phone pinged with news updates. “It’s shameful to watch — it’s like we are in a very strange dream.”

But there are many twists left to go. Even if the parties make the Wednesday midnight deadline to submit their proposal for a government to President Reuven Rivlin, it will take another week for this fledgling minority government to schedule a vote to be sworn in. For Netanyahu, the most skilful politician in Israel, seven days is plenty to find a way to scuttle their plans, said Rimon, the political strategist who kickstarted Netanyahu’s 12-year run as premier in 2009. Already, he said, Netanyahu has found the “weakest link” — Benny Gantz, an army chief turned politician whose Blue and White party secured roughly the same number of seats as Netanyahu’s in three back-to-back elections, before forming a coalition with him in 2020. Now at the helm of a deflated Blue and White party, with just eight seats, he has complained that he is being overlooked as an option for prime minister in coalition talks. The horse-trading over portfolios has been slowed down by his demands.

Meanwhile, Netanyahu has spurred his rightwing base into mass protests around the homes of the members of Bennett’s party. Their phones are constantly bombarded with calls accusing them of treason to the Zionist cause, said two people close to the party leadership. Ayelet Shaked, an influential lawmaker in Bennett’s party, has been placed under police protection, as have Lapid, Bennett, the attorney-general and prosecutors trying Netanyahu, and several journalists. “He will do more of the same — having a lot of rightwing pressure on Shaked to get her to disagree with the idea of this new government,” said Rimon. At the same, the Israeli media reported, Netanyahu has made private appeals to Shaked to bring the party back into Likud’s orbit, with the promise of choice cabinet positions in case of a fifth election. With eight parties to corral, and wrangling over cabinet and ministerial appointments dragging into all-night negotiations, “you can’t say it’s over till it’s over,” Ra’am chief Abbas quipped to the public broadcaster as he joined the coalition building talks on Tuesday.