Islamic Positive Thread

[VladimirIlyich]

How much clearer can I try and make this? It's genuinely fucking tedious the amount of times I have to do this.

 

People are asked "Do you agree with this terrible thing" in opinion polls and they say "yes" in huge percentages across the world.

 

I am not condemning "all muslims" I am condemning the millions and millions of muslims (majorities in some countries) that themselves hold those barbaric ideas. How we have gotten to this bizarre place where people will go out of their way to claim that people that hold beliefs don't actually hold those beliefs and that they are being cruelly stereotyped I have no idea. Progressive humanitarians are just putting their fingers in their ears and pretending that a lot of people hold horrible opinions in some misguided belief that it's helping tolerance.

 

Women are getting stoned to death for being gang raped and it's no biggie. Wake up.

Maybe you've missed my posts where I constantly recommend not supplying weapons or doing trade with these morons who stone people and dismember people under whatever premise they use to maintain power over their population.

 

I still maintain that most genuine Muslims and also Christians are genuinely good people. I also agree with your point about this being more to do with a 'human moral code' rather than religious beliefs.

The problem is that religion also helped shape some of these morals too,so they have become interwoven no matter what you or I feel about the matter.

[Stu Monty]

Maybe you've missed my posts where I constantly recommend not supplying weapons or doing trade with these morons who stone people and dismember people under whatever premise they use to maintain power over their population.

 

I still maintain that most genuine Muslims and also Christians are genuinely good people. I also agree with your point about this being more to do with a 'human moral code' rather than religious beliefs.

The problem is that religion also helped shape some of these morals too,so they have become interwoven no matter what you or I feel about the matter.

 

See, the problem there is that you're characterising these millions of people as having these views because they are forced to by the state.

 

There is an unwillingness to accept that, through the culture they have been raised in, there are millions of people out there that, without anybody twisting their arm, think that a lot of the shit that comes with Sharia Law is right and just and moral.

 

If I'm in charge of Islam and one in four of my flock think stoning adulterous women is just (and if the figures for people not in my flock are hugely lower than that) then, unless I'm an idiot, I know that I probably have something to do with that fact. 

 

The only way you actually help the more progressive muslims is by facing the reality that they face every day, the mountain they have to climb, not by pretending it doesn't exist.

 

Wasn't trying to be snarky but your post followed others featuring different flavours and volumes of "You're a bigot".

[Bjornebye]

I think some of them are sound. 

[Stu Monty]

Don't bother debating New Atheists. They're not interested in truth because it can help people to be more compassionate, it's all about being able to sneer at another set of people.

 

Alanis Morrisette just called; she wants to know if you want to appear in a song.

[Bjornebye]

Alanis Morrisette just called; she wants to know if you want to appear in a song.

 

Bang out of order. 

[Jairzinho]

See, the problem there is that you're characterising these millions of people as having these views because they are forced to by the state.

 

There is an unwillingness to accept that, through the culture they have been raised in, there are millions of people out there that, without anybody twisting their arm, think that a lot of the shit that comes with Sharia Law is right and just and moral.

 

If I'm in charge of Islam and one in four of my flock think stoning adulterous women is just (and if the figures for people not in my flock are hugely lower than that) then, unless I'm an idiot, I know that I probably have something to do with that fact. 

 

The only way you actually help the more progressive muslims is by facing the reality that they face every day, the mountain they have to climb, not by pretending it doesn't exist.

 

 

Do you not think that they have these views because of other factors as well? Their economic situation and their complete lack of security, often due to the West's meddling, for example?

 

Why are Muslims in Indonesia generally more tolerant than those in the Middle East? Do you think it might be more difficult to convince them to hold repugnant views?

 

The only way you help the majority of Muslims is by putting an end to drone bombing their children. By allowing them, by helping them in fact, to built safer, more prosperous societies. By encouraging public education. A generation or two of this would end most of the appetite for radical Islam.

 

How is the establishment brainwashing of people in the UK really any different to organised religion doing so elsewhere? In fact, really, we have less excuse for it here. Less excuse for the unbelievable ignorance of the population. More access to information, and less repercussions for challenging the widely accepted narrative.

[Section_31]

I'm interested in the holier than thou attitude we're adopting against Muslim oppression here.

 

Didn't we have MI5 agents eating popcorn while British citizens were having electrodes attached to their balls in Guantanamo Bay not too long ago?

 

Didn't we have night courts sending people to prison for stealing mini baby bells during the English riots?

 

Do we not have what Obama's former press secretary once described as 'the most partisan media in the western world'

 

Aren't we cracking down on the right to strike? Haven't we been complicit in the destruction of sovereign governments and actively helped cause most of the chaos in the middle East?

 

Part of Cameron's genius is that he blindsides people with token progressive gestures while slipping in regressive ones.

 

Backs the right for gay marriage with one hand, sends mobile advertising vans around London encouraging foreigners to go home with the other.

 

So much of our stick to beat Islam with is about how they treat women and gays - we're alright with the women and gays these days because it doesn't cost any money. When it comes to strikes though, or letting bankers continually rape the economy, we're not so progressive.

 

If we were Denmark or some shit, I wouldn't mind, but we're not, in fact if there's one thing worse than not being socially progressive, it's being progressive - and then regressing.

 

[Hades]

There is an unwillingness to accept, that through the culture they have been raised in, there are millions of rich, white westerners out there, without anybody twisting their arm, think capitalism which exploits the lives of poor non-white people the world over is just and moral.

 

[Rico1304]

There is an unwillingness to accept, that through the culture they have been raised in, there are millions of rich, white westerners out there, without anybody twisting their arm, think capitalism which exploits the lives of poor non-white people the world over is just and moral.

There are also people who've reaped the benefits of capitalism, had a top class free education, sitting at home in their mum and dads house, fresh from their summer holiday on the latest iPad or tablet who decry it as the worst thing in the world.

[Stu Monty]

There are also people who've reaped the benefits of capitalism, had a top class free education, sitting at home in their mum and dads house, fresh from their summer holiday on the latest iPad or tablet who decry it as the worst thing in the world.

Not sure how a free education is a benefit of capitalism?

 

Also not too much of a push to think that holidays and devices might not be exclusive products of one particular economic model.

[Rico1304]

Not sure how a free education is a benefit of capitalism?

Also not too much of a push to think that holidays and devices might not be exclusive products of one particular economic model.

Well he's had one in a capitalist society, so I'd say he's benefitted. Where do holidays and iPads come in the little red book?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Well he's had one in a capitalist society, so I'd say he's benefitted. Where do holidays and iPads come in the little red book?

Rights to holidays (like free education) do not sprout naturally from Capitalism, nor were they gifted by generous bosses. They were won by unions - something the poor fuckers who manufacture iPads could do with.

[PestiRed]

Well he's had one in a capitalist society, so I'd say he's benefitted. Where do holidays and iPads come in the little red book?

I think Apple products come under the heading "don't let rich western companies treat our citizens like slaves" in the little red book. Shame they didn't listen to it

 

I now holiday each year in the areas that were offered to Hungarians under communism - Lake Balaton, the Danube Bend, Croatia. All are fucking miles better than the Pwlheli Butlins hellhole that capitalism gave me during my childhood

[Rico1304]

I think Apple products come under the heading "don't let rich western companies treat our citizens like slaves" in the little red book. Shame they didn't listen to it

I now holiday each year in the areas that were offered to Hungarians under communism - Lake Balaton, the Danube Bend, Croatia. All are fucking miles better than the Pwlheli Butlins hellhole that capitalism gave me during my childhood

Hungarians freely chose to go there didn't they?

[VladimirIlyich]

Hungarians freely chose to go there didn't they?

Lake Balaton is still widely frequented by Germans today. Their economy is among the best in the world,so I'd say it appears to be far better than any Butlins or Pontins ex Air Raid Shelter.

[A Red]

It was the Hungarians desire to get to Butlins Barry Island that sparked the 1956 uprising

[VladimirIlyich]

It was the Hungarians desire to get to Butlins Barry Island that sparked the 1956 uprising

Bastards!

They should have been allowed in while filming of Gavin and Stacey was going on. They would have soon gone home!

[PestiRed]

Hungarians freely chose to go there didn't they?

No, for the majority the state told you when and where you were going on holiday.

[Stu Monty]

Well he's had one in a capitalist society, so I'd say he's benefitted. Where do holidays and iPads come in the little red book?

Are you the same person as the one talking to people about one thing not being a function of the other over on the religion thread?

 

I'm sure you're twins sharing a log-in or something.

[PestiRed]

Lake Balaton is still widely frequented by Germans today. Their economy is among the best in the world,so I'd say it appears to be far better than any Butlins or Pontins ex Air Raid Shelter.

Balaton is beautiful and just an hour away (except when the bloody motorways are gridlocked). Perfect swimming and boating there, no engines allowed so the water is crystal clear. Great weekend away in the summer

 

And many of the signs are in Hungarian and German as a hangover from the old communist days

[xerxes]

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the terror group known as ISIS, has cancelled a long awaited meeting with the actor Sean Penn, a spokesman for the group announced on Sunday.

 

The spokesman gave no reason for the abrupt cancellation, but said that al-Baghdadi no longer felt that meeting with Penn would be “prudent.”

 

A publicist for the film actor said that he was “disappointed” by the sudden termination of his appointment with the ISIS chief, and noted that Penn had gotten himself outfitted in brand new desert-camo attire in preparation for the meeting.

 

For his part, the ISIS spokesman said that al-Baghdadi hoped that Penn would harbor “no hard feelings” toward him, and emphasized that he remained an “enormous fan” of the actor.

 

“Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi loves all of Sean’s films, even that one he did with Madonna,” the spokesman said.

[Section_31]

Are you the same person as the one talking to people about one thing not being a function of the other over on the religion thread?

 

I'm sure you're twins sharing a log-in or something.

 

The notion that all socialism is the same, or all capitalism or the same, really is tiresome. 

 

I've got no problem with capitalism at all, I'd love to live in a capitalist society of a butcher, baker and candlestick maker, unfortunately I don't, I live in a country where money only exists on a screen, where huge corporations strangle competition and where executives chase short term shareholder gains at the cost of jobs and the country's long term economic health.

[VladimirIlyich]

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the terror group known as ISIS, has cancelled a long awaited meeting with the actor Sean Penn, a spokesman for the group announced on Sunday.

 

The spokesman gave no reason for the abrupt cancellation, but said that al-Baghdadi no longer felt that meeting with Penn would be “prudent.”

 

A publicist for the film actor said that he was “disappointed” by the sudden termination of his appointment with the ISIS chief, and noted that Penn had gotten himself outfitted in brand new desert-camo attire in preparation for the meeting.

 

For his part, the ISIS spokesman said that al-Baghdadi hoped that Penn would harbor “no hard feelings” toward him, and emphasized that he remained an “enormous fan” of the actor.

 

“Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi loves all of Sean’s films, even that one he did with Madonna,” the spokesman said.

Very poor taste in cinema if he likes the Penn/Madonna collaborations.

An immediate reason to distrust him.

[stringvest]

Trying to unpick religion from the cultural 'norms' that allow and facilitate atrocities small and large all over the world is futile and intellectually dishonest.  Religion and culture are intertwined and to a large degree co-dependent.  Though it occasionally happens in reverse, most often religion is used as a tool to reinforce a cultural or political dictat.  

 

It is impossible to escape the thought that 10 minutes after even the most benign religious constitution is enshrined, others have been finessing the message for their own benefit.  Of course, it is also fair to say that the act of formalising a set of beliefs into a religion in the first place is the point at which it becomes dangerous.  A religion is a cult with the advantage of numbers.

 

So, I'm anti Islam, anti Christian, and anti the rest of them.  And try as hard as I might, I'm unable to completely dissociate the mistrust, suspicion and antipathy from the individual following the 'teachings' of religion.  That is not the same as saying I dislike every individual with faith in one of these things, some of the most 'good' people I have ever met have been fervent followers, but it does colour my view of them to a degree.  It would be dishonest to say otherwise.  

[Bjornebye]

Trying to unpick religion from the cultural 'norms' that allow and facilitate atrocities small and large all over the world is futile and intellectually dishonest.  Religion and culture are intertwined and to a large degree co-dependent.  Though it occasionally happens in reverse, most often religion is used as a tool to reinforce a cultural or political dictat.  

 

It is impossible to escape the thought that 10 minutes after even the most benign religious constitution is enshrined, others have been finessing the message for their own benefit.  Of course, it is also fair to say that the act of formalising a set of beliefs into a religion in the first place is the point at which it becomes dangerous.  A religion is a cult with the advantage of numbers.

 

So, I'm anti Islam, anti Christian, and anti the rest of them.  And try as hard as I might, I'm unable to completely dissociate the mistrust, suspicion and antipathy from the individual following the 'teachings' of religion.  That is not the same as saying I dislike every individual with faith in one of these things, some of the most 'good' people I have ever met have been fervent followers, but it does colour my view of them to a degree.  It would be dishonest to say otherwise.  

 

And this from a man who was there when christ was born. Repped.