Why Tory Hillsborough documents must be released before Thatchcunt dies. Brian Reade

[Strontium]

You are the least rational person on this forum. You're blinded by bias and partizan idiocy. Quality 'rational' insult though, if utterly predictable.

 

 

You say so much yet with so little substance. Here's a tip: if you're going to call me a Tory, at least back it up with some kind of evidence, and then we can discuss the evidence.

 

Of course, we both know why you don't. Hard to supply evidence when the evidence doesn't exist.

 

You are a very incivil man.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

You say so much yet with so little substance. Here's a tip: if you're going to call me a Tory, at least back it up with some kind of evidence, and then we can discuss the evidence.

 

Of course, we both know why you don't. Hard to supply evidence when the evidence doesn't exist.

 

I've point out exactly why your rancid, illogical beliefs - which are based on little more than cursory analysis and partizan bias - would be more at home with the Conservatives. I've done it many times, and there's reams of evidence written in every one of your posts. You're a deluded individual.

 

When somebody as vacant as you, with such a poor grasp of reality, calls somebody else out for lacking substance, its pretty laughable. That's what you've become: laughable. It's especially funny when you pretend to base your opinions on fact.

 

You are a very incivil man.

 

You were the one who called me a prick, yet it's me who is being uncivil? Is this going to be another display of your willingness to retreat into your self-pity mode, directly after you've insulted somebody? Maybe you're going to wish me dead, being the good Liberal fellow that you are? Maybe that's what being civil is all about. It seems to work for you when anybody else questions your thin rhetoric.

[Frank Dacey]

I hope the release of these documents will help those bereaved or affected by Hillsborough, but I'm not sure they'll provide a 'smoking gun'. We have had 13 years of Labour government since the Tories lost power and while we might not have expected much from Tony Blair, Gordon Brown is one of the most partisan politicians of recent times and if he could have found anything to use to discredit the Tories he surely would have done so. It also seems odd to supposedly launch a cover-up to protect the police but then launch a Public Enquiry which unerringly pointed the finger of blame at them. The Hutton report was a good example of a government using such a report to hide their tracks.

[jamespp]

which are based on little more than cursory analysis and partizan bias

 

Partisan...Partizan are a football team

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Stronts and SD, can you take your spat out of this thread please,

 

I'm starting to get a little fucked off with it,

[drewy]

Stronts and SD, can you take your spat out of this thread please,

 

I'm starting to get a little fucked off with it,

 

Fuck me he's not arguing with himself as well is he?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Partisan...Partizan are a football team

 

Hope this helps your pedantry.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Stronts and SD, can you take your spat out of this thread please,

 

I'm starting to get a little fucked off with it,

 

Well said, SM. Get the fuck you of the thread, Stronts. Oh, and you SD. Pair of pricks.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

Fuck me he's not arguing with himself as well is he?

 

Ha ha.

 

Fuck up on my part.

 

I'll try again.

 

NN and SD, take your spat elsewhere.

 

I am fucked off with it. Especially in this thread.

[Anubis]

Exactly. That's why I want the documents released as soon as possible - to speed people towards the closure they've been cruelly denied for more than two decades. That's the priority here, not being able to put the boot into someone who is a borderline vegetable before she croaks it.

 

Justice involves those responsible for the event and it's aftermath being held accountable. Even if one of them does drool into her soup. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in Heaven. I don't believe in Hell. So for me, accountability, even if only in the court of public opinion, takes place while someone is alive.

[Strontium]

NN and SD, take your spat elsewhere.

 

I am fucked off with it. Especially in this thread.

 

 

Yeah, you're not the only one. In future I will do my utmost not to respond to NV's baseless slurs when they happen on the FF.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yeah, you're not the only one.

 

Most times people are picked up on their cursory, ignorant shite, they get fucked off. It's not much of a surprise you're fucked off with all the legitimate problems people have with you.

 

In future I will do my utmost not to respond to NV's baseless slurs when they happen on the FF.

 

SD in not responding shocker no. 648.

[Arl arse]

I lost someone at Hillsborough and yes I want the wicked witch brought to Justice before she kicks the bucket.

[VladimirIlyich]

Just to try and add an important point to the political party stuff.

As the club was formed in 1892,the founder was either going to be a Tory or Liberal as the Labour party wasnt formed until 1900.

 

For people who defend the government and its leader back in 1989 and squabble about having a go at thatcher,the two are inextricably linked.

 

The fact that the documents werent released earlier was originally down to her government and the contents of those documents will either show that she was a large part of a cover up or show that she defended others that were.

 

She and her government have a degree of culpability and anybody involved in the disaster will generally agree with that whatever their political persuasion.

[bigbak]

The message is lost in the politics. It comes across as more a stick to beat Thatcher with than to try and get Justice.

[lifetime fan]

The message is lost in the politics. It comes across as more a stick to beat Thatcher with than to try and get Justice.

 

Only if programmed by a right wing media, Justice is highlighting and punishing those to blame.

[longtimered]

As someone who was at Hillsborough I just hope any information which allows the full truth to be given to the families is made available as soon as possible.Any person who sought to bury the truth shpold be made accountable.

The mud slinging and personal insults on this thread remind me why this site has deteriorated.How some people see this as a fitting input into a Hillsborough related thread isbeyond me.

[Randy Marsh]

Match going red who's lucky enough to be able to use his position as a columnist in one of the most popular national newspapers to publicise our club's on running fight for justice, and supposed reds on here find reason to pick pathetic little faults with it. Absolutely Baffling.

[Lee909]

Hillsborough disaster's top cop is dead at 82

The chief constable who was in charge at the time of the Hillsborough disaster had died aged 82.

 

Peter Wright’s South Yorkshire force was criticised for crowd mismanagement which was one of the main causes of the crush that killed 96 Liverpool football fans in 1989.

 

Mr Wright, who led the force from 1983 until 1990, retired after the publication of the independent report by Lord Taylor which blamed police.

 

Hillsborough campaigner Trevor Hicks – who lost daughters Sarah, 19, and Victoria, 15 – said: “I offer my sympathies to Mr Wright’s family but can only comment on him in his professional capacity as the head of the police force operating on the day of the disaster.

 

“My overriding feeling is one of disappointment in him for not resigning straight away after the disaster. It would have been the honourable thing to have done.”

 

Current Chief Constable Meredydd Hughes said: “He led the force through its darkest hours always demonstrating outstanding personal integrity and commitment. He recognised the failures of the force at Hillsborough and apologised for them, offering his resignation.”

 

Mr Wright died in hospital in York after a long illness.

[xerxes]

I write as someone who was there that day, on the upper tier, who first started attending games in the seventies, and whose friend was a staffer on the Echo then.

 

Hillsborough has become one of those intractable issues which now pretty much defies resolution. My view is as follows.

 

The FA, League, Clubs, Local Authority Licensing committees, Government, Police and fans allowed ground safety and crowd behaviour to deteriorate over a twenty year period post the 1966 World Cup to such an extent that such a disaster was inevitable. All were culpable.

 

On the day, the Match Day Commander, who was inexperienced, made mistakes. The case that those mistakes amounted to negligence has never been clear. The gulf between what had become, for everyone, the norm then, and what is acceptable and permissible now ,is considerable. The culture of secrecy and arse covering has done no-one any favours. Mistakes, errors, misjudgements, were undoubtedly made. It is worth saying that even on the upper tier, it looked like a serious crush, not slaughter ,and that many left the ground , on all sides of it, unaware of how bad things were.

 

We are faced with a paradox. At the time culpability stretched way beyond individual Police Officers, as itemised above. The “Hillsborough Cover-up” is often misrepresented as a Police issue. That is wrong. The Establishment closed ranks to avoid the exposure of a systemic failure to control football crowds at pretty much every level. At the time, the villain count would have been so long that it was in no-ones interests (other than the victims and their families) to come clean. Yet now, it is becoming increasingly difficult to judge the actions of people at the time fairly, and within context. Which is why we are where we are now.

 

Another cruel paradox is that the hooliganism disaster at Heysel, and the crowd management disaster at Hillsborough are often confused by the uninformed. Yet the failure to have an independent inquiry into Heysel ( add the Belgian Police, Belgian FA and UEFA to the charge sheet)prevented the opportunity for the brakes to be put on the dive into the slum conditions which ended on the Leppings Lane terrace.

 

The remarkable thing about the Hillsborough Disaster is not that it happened, but that it happened there. Any veteran of there will rattle off numerous terraces, entrances ( and Tube Stations)which were far more likely suspects. Everyone became complacent, lazy and, and paralyzed until the inevitable happened.

 

The issue of what “Justice” looks like is never really considered. Disasters are rarely as a result of one thing going wrong, instead a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong happening at once. What made football such a special case back then is that the odds on a disaster happening were increasing by the year and at numerous events what is chilling was how little needed to go wrong, not how much, for a disaster to unfold.

 

The opening of gates to relieve pressure on turnstiles was not uncommon in that era. Co-ordinated stewarding of crowds pretty much non-existent. Crowd disturbance invariably was the result of hooliganism. Now the reverse is true.

 

Post crush, there is little doubt that the response was unco-ordinated and poor, the anecdotal evidence appears to be that Duckenfield froze. Yet even that charge is tempered by the fact that the authorities, at all levels, had failed to see the inevitable coming – a mass crowd disaster and how it should be responded to. Tens of millions of us are never put to the test in those appalling circumstances – thank God.

[magicrat]

I write as someone who was there that day, on the upper tier, who first started attending games in the seventies, and whose friend was a staffer on the Echo then.

 

Hillsborough has become one of those intractable issues which now pretty much defies resolution. My view is as follows.

 

The FA, League, Clubs, Local Authority Licensing committees, Government, Police and fans allowed ground safety and crowd behaviour to deteriorate over a twenty year period post the 1966 World Cup to such an extent that such a disaster was inevitable. All were culpable.

 

On the day, the Match Day Commander, who was inexperienced, made mistakes. The case that those mistakes amounted to negligence has never been clear. The gulf between what had become, for everyone, the norm then, and what is acceptable and permissible now ,is considerable. The culture of secrecy and arse covering has done no-one any favours. Mistakes, errors, misjudgements, were undoubtedly made. It is worth saying that even on the upper tier, it looked like a serious crush, not slaughter ,and that many left the ground , on all sides of it, unaware of how bad things were.

 

We are faced with a paradox. At the time culpability stretched way beyond individual Police Officers, as itemised above. The “Hillsborough Cover-up” is often misrepresented as a Police issue. That is wrong. The Establishment closed ranks to avoid the exposure of a systemic failure to control football crowds at pretty much every level. At the time, the villain count would have been so long that it was in no-ones interests (other than the victims and their families) to come clean. Yet now, it is becoming increasingly difficult to judge the actions of people at the time fairly, and within context. Which is why we are where we are now.

 

Another cruel paradox is that the hooliganism disaster at Heysel, and the crowd management disaster at Hillsborough are often confused by the uninformed. Yet the failure to have an independent inquiry into Heysel ( add the Belgian Police, Belgian FA and UEFA to the charge sheet)prevented the opportunity for the brakes to be put on the dive into the slum conditions which ended on the Leppings Lane terrace.

 

The remarkable thing about the Hillsborough Disaster is not that it happened, but that it happened there. Any veteran of there will rattle off numerous terraces, entrances ( and Tube Stations)which were far more likely suspects. Everyone became complacent, lazy and, and paralyzed until the inevitable happened.

 

The issue of what “Justice” looks like is never really considered. Disasters are rarely as a result of one thing going wrong, instead a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong happening at once. What made football such a special case back then is that the odds on a disaster happening were increasing by the year and at numerous events what is chilling was how little needed to go wrong, not how much, for a disaster to unfold.

 

The opening of gates to relieve pressure on turnstiles was not uncommon in that era. Co-ordinated stewarding of crowds pretty much non-existent. Crowd disturbance invariably was the result of hooliganism. Now the reverse is true.

 

Post crush, there is little doubt that the response was unco-ordinated and poor, the anecdotal evidence appears to be that Duckenfield froze. Yet even that charge is tempered by the fact that the authorities, at all levels, had failed to see the inevitable coming – a mass crowd disaster and how it should be responded to. Tens of millions of us are never put to the test in those appalling circumstances – thank God.

 

Thanks for posting.

Despite the diffuclties of judging people fairly from todays perspective , to which you refer, we have to have a full disclosure and try. Nothing less will suffice now.

[xerxes]

Thanks for posting.

Despite the diffuclties of judging people fairly from todays perspective , to which you refer, we have to have a full disclosure and try. Nothing less will suffice now.

 

I agree.

 

My hunch is that,on balance, those who feel that they were to be held as scapegoats have less to fear than they may think.

 

On the day Duckenfield got it wrong, before, during, and after.My personal view is that those errors were on the side of poor judgement, bad luck and contemporary practises rather than criminal negligence.

 

By contrast, those in charge of key areas in the game were negligent in my view in their responsibilities to the game, and its spectators. Too many have hidden behind the police for too long.

[migs]

Apologies if this has been posted before. It's a song by Robb Johnson which addresses the treatment of football fans in general, and focuses on Hillsborough in particular.

 

Be advised that the slideshow contains images from Hillsborough which may cause distress.

 

[YOUTUBE]_ipbUFhxuZ8[/YOUTUBE]

[cracker]

I agree.

 

My hunch is that,on balance, those who feel that they were to be held as scapegoats have less to fear than they may think.

 

On the day Duckenfield got it wrong, before, during, and after.My personal view is that those errors were on the side of poor judgement, bad luck and contemporary practises rather than criminal negligence.

 

By contrast, those in charge of key areas in the game were negligent in my view in their responsibilities to the game, and its spectators. Too many have hidden behind the police for too long.

 

I hesitate to get involved really but what you have said there does not reflect my position.

 

Duckinfield? - this man as Liverpool fans were dying on the pitch told lies about them kicking a gate down to the BBC and those lies were believed by many for some time. Given those facts I am not prepared to defend him tbh. I will grant that he did not set out to kill people that day so maybe the word murderer is not the best word for him but due to his gross incompetance 96 people died and so surely he must bear more responsibility than he has hitherto. If I had made a mistake with those consequences then I believe that I would do my best to apologise and do what i could to put things right with the relatives, this man never has and has more concentrated on saving his own skin - but then thats the difference between us decent people and him I guess. The truth is he was responsible for deploying people to make sure proper queues were formed outside the ground, for making sure that when that did not happen and the gate had to be opened for people to be directed into the correct areas, when he saw there was a dangerous crush there to tell his men to let people onto the pitch to save them, for making sure when the emergency started to happen that suitable first aid and emergency services got there asap and were suitably used ...etc. He did none of these things, any one of which would have averted the disaster or at least made it not so bad. He did not work another day after that and retired on a good pension to the south coast as i understand it.

 

Yes the football authorities had got things wrong and the public regarded football fans very badly in the 80s, but with proper competant policing Hillsborough was policeable (if thats a word) - we did not get that and so I believe the police above all and Duckinfield as their commander that day should bear the brunt of the blame for what happened.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

I cant help but think that we all need to try as hard as we can to help the upcoming vote to release the information on what went on that day a helping hand.

 

With the government still trying to block the release of the documents,this upcoming mp vote on the matter makes me think the families will get no joy out of it.

 

You can better you last penny that on the day the tory bench will be packed and voting not to release the documents,whilst the other side at best be half full.

 

I dont no if it has already been mentioned,but maybe emailing all mps with a pre made letter would help.

 

This letter could be put on all LFC fansites for there members to send to mps.

 

I really do think we should be doing as much as we can to finally get the documents released.

 

Another way might be if not already tried is getting Bernard Ingham to come out and say something.I know that is a real longshot but it has been over 20 years since he retired as the Witches pr man.

 

I just think that there must be something we can all do to make 17 th October go the families way and bring a end to the injustice and suffering of the families once and for all.