Local elections 5th May

[magicrat]

Its unbelievable with Tories destroying the country with years of cuts and austerity, hell bent on taking over cliff with Brexit and embroiled in scandals week in week out that we don't have an opposition capable of wiping the floor with the cunts. Its not unreasonable to doubt Corbyn's ability to deliver a Labour government,   

[cloggypop]

Where are you living mow? Are politics as equally fucked there or are they better?

I can't speak for Spain but Corbyn would not be portrayed as far left here in the Netherlands. Loads of parties here though. Links Groen are currently polling second here and they are more left than Corbyn policies. They are basically green Socialist.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Its unbelievable with Tories destroying the country with years of cuts and austerity, hell bent on taking over cliff with Brexit and embroiled in scandals week in week out that we don't have an opposition capable of wiping the floor with the cunts. Its not unreasonable to doubt Corbyn's ability to deliver a Labour government,

Considering he's up against just about all the print and broadcast media and large sections of the PLP, you'd have to question whether there is anyone else in the Labour Party who could deliver significant gains in the General Election and the local elections, the way Corbyn has.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Here's an analysis of Labour's "disappointing" [sic] results in London.

 

Check out @swiftenburg’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/swiftenburg/status/992343725195124736?s=09

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Numbers are much more reliable than opinions.

 

Check out @evolvepolitics’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/992442534067613697?s=09

[clangers]

Considering he's up against just about all the print and broadcast media and large sections of the PLP, you'd have to question whether there is anyone else in the Labour Party who could deliver significant gains in the General Election and the local elections, the way Corbyn has.

I thought the whole point of Momentum and the Corbyn surge from the last GE was to build a grass roots platform to overcome the media bias rather than just invigorate the Labour core? I wouldn't disagree about a media bias although in the age of social media let's not overstate it? As much as I disliked 'New Labour' Blair ultimately showed that you have to reach out to the center ground of voters for Labour to win.

 

Bottom line is as a result of the coalition and then Brexit we're effectively in an age of two party politics again and neither Corbyn or the Tories are able reach out from their respective base of around 40% to build enough support to win an overall majority.

 

I don't see Corbyn winning a majority in an election, he may do enough to scrape together a coalition next time? What I'm hoping his real legacy will be is to normalise a lot of what have been previously perceived as 'loony left' discredited policies. The real threat to the Tories is and always has been Brexit.

[Boss]

Hmm. Corbyn is pretty left-wing, but the most surprising thing about the Labour manifesto at the last election was how moderate it was. Actually it was less progressive than the Lib Dem manifesto, committing them to eliminating tuition fees, which mostly benefits higher earners, but not eliminating Tory benefit cuts, which mostly impact upon lower earners.

 

How does it benefit high earners when these people are in university? Most of them haven't got an income.

 

Also what's progressive about the Lib Dem manifesto? Borrowing all the money? Is that progressive to you? Progressively stupid more like. You lot don't even need a manifesto because nobody votes for you. You can make up whatever you want with zero accountability. That weed legalisation policy was the most shameless vote grab i've ever seen. You and I both know, full well, that would've been dropped like a stone in the unfathomable event of Tim Farron becoming Prime Minister. 

[Rico1304]

I don’t buy the "Corbyn will never be Prime Minister" line. If the party bureaucracy had actually tried to win the last GE - instead of throwing all their resources into a rearguard action to protect the Blairites in the PLP - he could be PM today. Now that MacNicol has gone, Labour could actually win a General Election.

He’s only got one more chance though, after that he’ll be too old.

[A Red]

How does it benefit high earners when these people are in university? Most of them haven't got an income.

 

I think the point is that people who go to university end up as the higher earners. That was the justification of student fees.

[Vincent Vega]

The Tories win councils in London where you need to be a millionaire to be able to afford to live there, absolutely amazing.

 

I saw one fella interviewed on the BBC in Wandsworth and he said he voted Tory as he always does because they have one of the lowest council taxes in the country. It was the most Tory thing ever and just sums up what a fucked up country we live in.

[Jairzinho]

Where are you living mow? Are politics as equally fucked there or are they better?

Sevilla.

 

Right wing govt, but significantly less cunty than the UK's. It's also much easier to live "outside" politics in Southern Europe. The political system also means other parties have more power than non governing parties here.

 

With these Tories and Brexit, people here look at the UK as if we're some sort of misbehaving animal in a zoo.

[Jairzinho]

I thought the whole point of Momentum and the Corbyn surge from the last GE was to build a grass roots platform to overcome the media bias rather than just invigorate the Labour core? I wouldn't disagree about a media bias although in the age of social media let's not overstate it? As much as I disliked 'New Labour' Blair ultimately showed that you have to reach out to the center ground of voters for Labour to win.

 

 

He didn't. He showed that if you move the Labour Party much closer to the Tory party then Rupert Murdoch will support you.

 

The problem with this is two fold. Firstly, you don't then decide how much further right you go, Rupert does. And also, you shift what the "centre ground" is, making it significantly more difficult for actual centre left politics in the future (see now for details).

 

Why do you expect Momentum to be able to eradicate 35/40 years of propaganda in two years?

[Numero Veinticinco]

Spain, a political wonderland.

[Boss]

I think the point is that people who go to university end up as the higher earners. That was the justification of student fees.

 

I know what he meant, but it's helping poor students and low earners primarily. That's the demographic it's helping.

[Strontium]

I know what he meant, but it's helping poor students and low earners primarily. That's the demographic it's helping.

No it isn't, because graduates earn more in general, and higher earning graduates pay back more of their loans. It makes far less difference to low earning graduates. The IFS is all over this shit: "As high-earning graduates repay the largest share of their student loans, they benefit the most from the removal of tuition fees. The repayments from the highest-earning graduates (those earning more than around £100,000 a year on average, over their lifetime) would fall by 67% from £93,000 to £30,000, while the lowest-earning would benefit very little."

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I thought the whole point of Momentum and the Corbyn surge from the last GE was to build a grass roots platform to overcome the media bias rather than just invigorate the Labour core? I wouldn't disagree about a media bias although in the age of social media let's not overstate it? As much as I disliked 'New Labour' Blair ultimately showed that you have to reach out to the center ground of voters for Labour to win.

 

Bottom line is as a result of the coalition and then Brexit we're effectively in an age of two party politics again and neither Corbyn or the Tories are able reach out from their respective base of around 40% to build enough support to win an overall majority.

 

I don't see Corbyn winning a majority in an election, he may do enough to scrape together a coalition next time? What I'm hoping his real legacy will be is to normalise a lot of what have been previously perceived as 'loony left' discredited policies. The real threat to the Tories is and always has been Brexit.

I thought the whole point of Momentum and the Corbyn surge from the last GE was to build a grass roots platform to overcome the media bias rather than just invigorate the Labour core?

Election results suggest they have succeeded at that.  The point I was making was that Labour's "official" party resources at the last General Election were controlled by right-wingers scared of losing their seats, rather than the likes of Momentum who were more concerned with winning new seats; Momentum mobilised people for leafleting, canvassing, phone banks, etc, and Iain McNicol and his Blairite crew squandered those resources campaigning in constituencies in which they would have little or no effect on the national picture.

 

As much as I disliked 'New Labour' Blair ultimately showed that you have to reach out to the center ground of voters for Labour to win.

Blair didn't so much reach out to the centre as switch to the right - neoliberal economics; maintaining anti-union laws; ambivalent response to rising racism; privatisations; tuition fees; increasing inequality; imperialist wars; etc. - in order to keep Murdoch and the rest of the media onside, while throwing a few progressive measures into the mix, to try to keep traditional Labour voters onside.  It was a tactic that led to a comfortable win over an unelectable Tory party in 1997 and reduced vote share at every successive General Election since then.  Corbyn changed that tactic and reversed that trend.

 

What I'm hoping his real legacy will be is to normalise a lot of what have been previously perceived as 'loony left' discredited policies.

The policies promoted by Corbyn are only derided as "loony Left" (or "hard Left" in the modern vernacular) by the extreme right-wingers who set the tone of most of the print and broadcast media.  Everyone else - including many Tory voters - think the policies are right.  I won't often say this about Giles Brandreth, but this is always worth watching.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

No it isn't, because graduates earn more in general, and higher earning graduates pay back more of their loans. It makes far less difference to low earning graduates. The IFS is all over this shit: "As high-earning graduates repay the largest share of their student loans, they benefit the most from the removal of tuition fees. The repayments from the highest-earning graduates (those earning more than around £100,000 a year on average, over their lifetime) would fall by 67% from £93,000 to £30,000, while the lowest-earning would benefit very little."

I can't be arsed checking, but it would be interesting to see your take on this from the 2010 General Election campaign, when the Lib Dems were "pledging" to oppose any increase in tuition fees and to abolish them within 6 years.  Were you arguing then that such a move would be regressive?

[lifetime fan]

He didn't. He showed that if you move the Labour Party much closer to the Tory party then Rupert Murdoch will support you.

 

The problem with this is two fold. Firstly, you don't then decide how much further right you go, Rupert does. And also, you shift what the "centre ground" is, making it significantly more difficult for actual centre left politics in the future (see now for details).

 

Why do you expect Momentum to be able to eradicate 35/40 years of propaganda in two years?

 

 

The fallacy of the so called centrist.

 

Right Winger: "I think 2+2=6"

Left Winger: "no, stupid, 2+2=4"

So called Centrist:"come on guys, let's not fight. Let's agree that clearly 2+2=5"

 

 

[cloggypop]

Results

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

UKIP- down 123.

 

That's lovely.

[Denny Crane]

People shouldn't focus on the individual when it comes to education. Typical Tory behaviour attempting to divide and pit one group against another.

 

A country that invests in its people is a richer country. Many have argued an educated workforce = greater GDP and greater achievements in scientific fields etc.

 

Ffs we can't even train enough doctors and a lot of those that we do are so fed up by conditions and pay they leave to go work overseas to help pay their debt off quicker.

 

I'd add a few caveats education should be a lifelong opportunity. Not everyone is ready at the same time and the system we have in place discourages older people. Secondly the government should raise the age they fund apprenticeships for, at present it stops at 25. People are living longer and retiring later.

[Jairzinho]

UKIP Will improve on those results next time by only being down three.

[Strontium]

I can't be arsed checking, but it would be interesting to see your take on this from the 2010 General Election campaign, when the Lib Dems were "pledging" to oppose any increase in tuition fees and to abolish them within 6 years. Were you arguing then that such a move would be regressive?

Apples and oranges. The tuition fee regime was different back then, the threshold for repayments was lower so it affected lower earning graduates more. The system we have now is more progressive. And of course, the Lib Dem policy was cheaper too.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Apples and oranges. The tuition fee regime was different back then, the threshold for repayments was lower so it affected lower earning graduates more. The system we have now is more progressive. And of course, the Lib Dem policy was cheaper too.

Of course.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

People shouldn't focus on the individual when it comes to education. Typical Tory behaviour attempting to divide and pit one group against another.

 

A country that invests in its people is a richer country. Many have argued an educated workforce = greater GDP and greater achievements in scientific fields etc.

 

Ffs we can't even train enough doctors and a lot of those that we do are so fed up by conditions and pay they leave to go work overseas to help pay their debt off quicker.

 

I'd add a few caveats education should be a lifelong opportunity. Not everyone is ready at the same time and the system we have in place discourages older people. Secondly the government should raise the age they fund apprenticeships for, at present it stops at 25. People are living longer and retiring later.

That's pretty much Corbyn's line.  Reducing the burden of debt reduces the number of talented people prevented from continuing their education and we all benefit from that, by having more and better engineers, doctors, architects, accountants, lawyers, vets, etc.