Cancel Culture

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It's the disingenuous 'for show' aspect of it which I can't abide, but that's social media for you I guess.

Put that aside. (Or, more to the point, don't just assume that people are being disingenuous or showing off.)  

 

Do you think that line was racist?

If not, why not?

If so, do you think it's OK to just laugh along with racism, as if that's a normal thing to do in a decent society?

[sir roger]

9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 As a joke, it works the same if you replace Gypsies with Jews, Gays, Blacks, Socialists or disabled people.  

I disagree , surely the whole ' joke ' revolves around the different public perception of gypsies against the other categories.

 

As to the 'racist' tag , it depends if you see Carr as inciting it or pointing out foibles in the public perception towards gypsies.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Here's the context for that joke. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gypsy-traveller-children-police-trespass-laws-b1974955.html?amp

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I disagree , surely the whole ' joke ' revolves around the different public perception of gypsies against the other categories.

 

As to the 'racist' tag , it depends if you see Carr as inciting it or pointing out foibles in the public perception towards gypsies.

He's joking that it's "positive" that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered because of their ethnicity. It's hard not to see that as, at least, a bit racist.

 

The only context I can think of that would justify that would be if he had the spuds to follow it with a challenge to his audience: to actually say something to the effect of "let's do that joke again, but make it about gay people" and then launch a routine on the basis of what you're suggesting. 

 

[Captain Willard]

18 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I think he was getting a cheap laugh. 

 

His career is built on (as he describes it) getting people to laugh at stuff they shouldn't laugh at; he loves the sound of an audience laughing, followed by an intake of breath as they realise "that's not right". Fair play to him. That's what tasteless humour is all about.  Personally, I love stuff like that and I think Jimmy Carr is really funny.  (As a stand-up, I think his material is good, but his delivery is a bit shit; but that's another story.)

 

But there's a risk of misjudging it and going too far. That's what he's done here. He's strayed into hate speech. As a joke, it works the same if you replace Gypsies with Jews, Gays, Blacks, Socialists or disabled people.  But he knows it's career suicide to do that: the only reason he (and Netflix) decided that joke was OK is the thought that Gypsies are fair game for hate speech. If you're anti-racist, you've really got to take the view that it's not OK.

This is spot on. Substitute the word blacks into the joke and see if it would still be acceptable. Carr knows that most of his mainly middle class audience have never met a traveller so he can dehumanise them.

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

This is spot on. Substitute the word blacks into the joke and see if it would still be acceptable. Carr knows that most of his mainly middle class audience have never met a traveller so he can dehumanise them.

That’s absolutely mental.  
 

In the bit afterwards he tells the audience what he means. Putting black in the joke wouldn’t be funny as only massive racists want black people dead but plenty of ‘normal’ people dislike gypsies. 

[Captain Willard]

9 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

That’s absolutely mental.  
 

In the bit afterwards he tells the audience what he means. Putting black in the joke wouldn’t be funny as only massive racists want black people dead but plenty of ‘normal’ people dislike gypsies. 

Are you quoting him in the second sentence or is that your opinion ? 

[Rico1304]

Just now, Captain Willard said:

Are you quoting him in the second sentence or is that your opinion ? 

It’s clear from what he says after the joke, or, do you think Jimmy Carr has managed to hide his KKK gowns for 25 years.  You can make sweeping statements (a theme) about carrs entire audience - that’s fine.  

[Captain Willard]

11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s clear from what he says after the joke, or, do you think Jimmy Carr has managed to hide his KKK gowns for 25 years.  You can make sweeping statements (a theme) about carrs entire audience - that’s fine.  

Following your logic, if ‘normal’ people dislike a minority in society then it’s ok to make jokes about killing them even though within our lifetime, 500,000 of these people were actually killed by ‘normal’ people. No absolute morals, just the barometer of what ‘normal’ people like. Do you see the crass nihilism of that position ? 

[A Red]

I don't think he was looking to educate anyone, just get a laugh. If he had said "100,000 gypsies were killed in Auschwitz , because they kept turning up trying to get the tarmac job" that might have been funnier. Stereotyping maybe but not as bad as saying their murder was a good thing.

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

50 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

plenty of ‘normal’ people dislike gypsies. 

 

37 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Are you quoting him in the second sentence or is that your opinion ? 

 

35 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s clear from what he says after the joke

That's not an answer.

 

Is that your opinion or are you quoting/paraphrasing Jimmy Carr?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Then you're sat in the wrong place. Pull your pompous head out of your hypocritical arse and sit up straight.

 

There's a difference between poor taste and hate speech. Jimmy Carr has made a career out of poor taste jokes; that "isn't genocide funny, when the victims are people we don't care about" joke crosses a line into hate speech. 

 

My main concern is with the Netflix editors and executives who decided that line was fit to make the cut.  Just swap Gypsies for any of the other groups exterminated by the Nazis and imagine them signing that off.

 

So, I'm not going to boost their ratings by watching the show to get this powerful context - so powerful, it can make genocide OK - context people keep referring to.  If anyone has got a longer clip to prove their point, that would be just fine.  Until then, all I've got is a bloke boosting the last acceptable form of racism with hate speech.

 

Giving a shit about stuff that affects people who aren't us is just basic humanity.  Your argument against empathy marks you down as an utter cunt. 

 

You keep using the word "outrage".  I don't know where you're getting that from. If I got outraged at every egregious bit of hate speech I ever saw, I'd have no time for anything else. I posted the Jimmy Carr thing on the Racism thread, because it's racist; I then came here and found people contorting themselves into ways to try to argue that this specific bit of racism is OK. It isn't.

 

(As for your horse shit about Stronts and Corbyn and anti-Semitism - go fuck yourself.  I have never defended or excused or equivocated about anti-Semitism.  I will only call out lies when I see them: I won't call people liars indiscriminately. There's hundreds of posts across too many threads that will bear me out on that.)

Where am I arguing against empathy? 
 

Need a cuddle?

[Captain Willard]

15 minutes ago, A Red said:

I don't think he was looking to educate anyone, just get a laugh. If he had said "100,000 gypsies were killed in Auschwitz , because they kept turning up trying to get the tarmac job" that might have been funnier. Stereotyping maybe but not as bad as saying their murder was a good thing.

 

 

That did actually make me laugh which doesn’t help my argument much. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

6 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

That did actually make me laugh which doesn’t help my argument much. 

That’s ok though isn’t it? 

[Rico1304]

35 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Following your logic, if ‘normal’ people dislike a minority in society then it’s ok to make jokes about killing them even though within our lifetime, 500,000 of these people were actually killed by ‘normal’ people. No absolute morals, just the barometer of what ‘normal’ people like. Do you see the crass nihilism of that position ? 

Fuck me it’s not about killing them, it’s holding a mirror up to people who laughed and making them think about their views about gypsies.  See if you can clutch those pearls a bit harder.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

13 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Where am I arguing against empathy? 

You're arguing that people shouldn't give a shit about stuff that doesn't directly affect them.

 

Need a dictionary?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Just now, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You're arguing that people shouldn't give a shit about stuff that doesn't directly affect them.

 

Need a dictionary?

No, I am arguing against the outrage. Two separate things. 
 

Need some glasses? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Fuck me it’s not about killing them, it’s holding a mirror up to people who laughed and making them think about their views about gypsies.  See if you can clutch those pearls a bit harder.  

That joke absolutely isn't.

 

Any chance you can answer his question?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Just now, Skidfingers McGonical said:

No, I am arguing against the outrage. Two separate things. 
 

Need some glasses? 

So... people should give a shit, but keep quiet about it?

 

You're an idiot.

[Rico1304]

27 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

That joke absolutely isn't.

 

Any chance you can answer his question?

It fucking is absolutely that.  Why did I say ‘normal’ instead of normal?  
 

I don’t think most people are massive racists.  That ok? 

[SasaS]

I've actually watched most of it now, there are hundreds of jokes to be offended by and some are worse than that one in my opinion.  It is certainly not hate speech. It is structured as his usual show with the offensive comic persona in the middle making jokes about stuff that are supposed to be off limits and being mean to his audience, this time turned up to 11. You can take any of the jokes out of the context of the show and it would look extremely bad for him, if you want to. There is a joke right next to the Gypsies about Jehova's Witnesses being invited to the concentration camp which is equally bad.

 

So by singling out the Gipsies you may be saying that you don't have a problem with Jehova's Witnesses being murdered, or that you are OK with all the rape jokes, or that you are not because you have not watched the show, but how can you then issue statements about it, based on the ten seconds or what was typed on the Twitter?

[Rico1304]

David Lammy jumping on the bandwagon and saying the timing is awful as it was Holocaust Week recently. The special was released on Christmas Day.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

It fucking is absolutely that.  

Which bit? Because it's certainly not, y'know, the words or their meanings.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

 

 

That's not an answer.

 

Is that your opinion or are you quoting/paraphrasing Jimmy Carr?

It's a simple question; I've no idea why you're going all Nadine Dorries on it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

5 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

David Lammy jumping on the bandwagon and saying the timing is awful as it was Holocaust Week recently. The special was released on Christmas Day.  

I've got to say, I'm surprised by the reaction on here a few days after the consensus on another thread that the Holocaust was a bad thing.