Israel - A Rant

[Red Phoenix]

The TikTok thing isn't going so well for Zionists.

 

 

[Fowlers God]

I dont even know how this ends any more. 

 

Grim. 

[ZonkoVille77]

12 minutes ago, Fowlers God said:

I dont even know how this ends any more. 

 

Grim. 

 

The whole idea of the UN and The Hague etc was to prevent anything like this from happening again. The failure is there for all to see.

 

With Russia being condemned for invading Ukraine and killing civilians in Ukraine (at least the Ukrainians have some means to defend themselves), whilst Israel have done the exact same to Palestinians, and possibly worse, the West has shown itself to be the most duplicitous of cunts.

 

Netanyahu has seen how weak the West is and has just done what he has always dreamt of - begun the eradication/elimination/forced migration of an entire tranche of people.

 

We see it is white capitalists commiting the crimes in Palestine, so that's OK of course. It's the "only democracy in the middle east", so that's OK of course. 

 

So does it end with the death of every Palestinian currently living in Palestine or the eradication of Israel by Palestinians who will keep fighting? Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. The right-wing cunts in the current Israeli government don't want a 2 state solution. There doesn't look to be any in-between other than continued violence. 

 

Western people need to put pressure on their own governments to hold Israel to account. How that happens with the US bankrolling the murder of Palestinians - I've no idea. It needs to happen though. 

[Fowlers God]

1 minute ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

The whole idea of the UN and The Hague etc was to prevent anything like this from happening again. The failure is there for all to see.

 

With Russia being condemned for invading Ukraine and killing civilians in Ukraine (at least the Ukrainians have some means to defend themselves), whilst Israel have done the exact same to Palestinians, and possibly worse, the West has shown itself to be the most duplicitous of cunts.

 

Netanyahu has seen how weak the West is and has just done what he has always dreamt of - begun the eradication/elimination/forced migration of an entire tranche of people.

 

We see it is white capitalists commiting the crimes in Palestine, so that's OK of course. It's the "only democracy in the middle east", so that's OK of course. 

 

So does it end with the death of every Palestinian currently living in Palestine or the eradication of Israel by Palestinians who will keep fighting? Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. The right-wing cunts in the current Israeli government don't want a 2 state solution. There doesn't look to be any in-between other than continued violence. 

 

Western people need to put pressure on their own governments to hold Israel to account. How that happens with the US bankrolling the murder of Palestinians - I've no idea. It needs to happen though. 

Im trying to educate myself as much as I can and feel very ignorant to the situation currently. 
 

will some nations always be "ally's" though? 
 

what is the course of action for talks or is it beyond that? 
what does pressure from the west against Israel achieve?
will it be another World War?

 

never has a time of just stop killing ring so true 

[Fowlers God]

1 minute ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

The whole idea of the UN and The Hague etc was to prevent anything like this from happening again. The failure is there for all to see.

 

With Russia being condemned for invading Ukraine and killing civilians in Ukraine (at least the Ukrainians have some means to defend themselves), whilst Israel have done the exact same to Palestinians, and possibly worse, the West has shown itself to be the most duplicitous of cunts.

 

Netanyahu has seen how weak the West is and has just done what he has always dreamt of - begun the eradication/elimination/forced migration of an entire tranche of people.

 

We see it is white capitalists commiting the crimes in Palestine, so that's OK of course. It's the "only democracy in the middle east", so that's OK of course. 

 

So does it end with the death of every Palestinian currently living in Palestine or the eradication of Israel by Palestinians who will keep fighting? Hamas doesn't want a 2 state solution. The right-wing cunts in the current Israeli government don't want a 2 state solution. There doesn't look to be any in-between other than continued violence. 

 

Western people need to put pressure on their own governments to hold Israel to account. How that happens with the US bankrolling the murder of Palestinians - I've no idea. It needs to happen though. 

Im trying to educate myself as much as I can and feel very ignorant to the situation currently. 
 

will some nations always be "ally's" though? 
 

what is the course of action for talks or is it beyond that? 
what does pressure from the west against Israel achieve?
will it be another World War?

 

never has a time of just stop killing ring so true 

[ZonkoVille77]

3 minutes ago, Fowlers God said:

Im trying to educate myself as much as I can and feel very ignorant to the situation currently. 
 

will some nations always be "ally's" though? 
 

what is the course of action for talks or is it beyond that? 
what does pressure from the west against Israel achieve?
will it be another World War?

 

never has a time of just stop killing ring so true 

 

Western nations will always be allied to Israel for a number of reason, but basically these 2:

 

1 - To help Jews have a place to call home after the horrors inflicted on Jewish people in WW2. The hope was to allow Jews to finally  feel safe from the ever-present antisemitic threat they experience.

2 - To have a strategically placed ally in a geopolitical hotspot. Israel/Palestine being right beside Iran/Iraq/Syria/Russia etc. This comes in handy should any major World War break out.You might also throw the whole access to Oil into that equation. 

 

The West can literally force Israel to stop. The Americans more or less pay for Israeli defence systems and weapons. 

 

I think most people just want Israel to cease the murder of innocent civilians (children especially) and let the Palestinians have a place to call home. You'd think after WW2 the Israelis would know more than most about needing a safe place to call home. 

 

[Jurgen Knows]

25 minutes ago, Fowlers God said:

 

what is the course of action for talks or is it beyond that? 
 

Talks between the neck and the sword …

 

Ghassan Kanafani’s answer from 1970 still holds true today

 

 

 

[Red Shift]

8 hours ago, an tha said:

Fucking hell.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67463162

 

"The settlers," she said, shaking her head, as the young Israeli walked past her welded-shut front door. "They can do what they want. They are the chosen people."

 

 

This shit just brings me to tears. Again.

[TheHowieLama]

Just made it through the Candace Owens pod - thankfully she has very little airtime and doesn't pretend it is a debate, or even a two way conversation - providing a platform for Finkelstein, starting the segment with arguably his greatest "hit."

No one is more versed in the post '48 history of the area from the Palestinian side - he has always said he formulated his overall thesis very early in life and has dedicated it to that historical study as a means to an end. Not touched on in this interview is the "cost" some of his opinions have resulted in, specifically in the academic and speaking world. He has been honest about how that pisses him off.

 

As he makes many of the same valid points he has for years I will just make a couple comments.

 

In this pod he re-iterates that he is not pro Palestinian. He does make the same point I did about NYC having a very active Jewish community that is in alignment with the majority of the ROW.

He admits he is not an expert on Hamas. When he states that they weren't political at the time of the 2006 elections and did not even want to be involved - I disagree. His take on the corruption of Abbas and the PA is spot on and he does acknowledge that Hamas has lost the support of many Gazans as they have become equally, if not more, corrupt.

 

He "quotes" Clinton, using words she never said - there are other recent interviews where he suggests that what the US did in Chile and Nicaragua back up what he is suggesting - in his opinion.

 

His analogy between Hamas and Nat Turner to justify their actions is still hopeful at best. As it was when he trotted it out a month ago. He does have some stones to run it up the flagpole with a black American I'll give him that.

 

The continued declaration that no one "is allowed to mention" pre Oct 7th seems strange as he has spent his entire life doing the opposite including in pretty much every time he speaks as well as this very discussion.

 

He makes an interesting comment about crimes of humanity vs genocide - and imo he is conflicted there. First he states that what is happening now falls in between the two, then matter of factly states that it is a genocide.

That is at odds I think with his continued "mowing the lawn" assertions. There are 5 million Palestinians, citing instances of hundreds of deaths, even thousands - while being politically unacceptable worldwide and morally reprehensible individually, is categorically not genocide, imo he knows that.

 

Also, he kind of skates over the population growth question (one of Owens decent contributions albeit from a guest of a few days ago) by shoehorning in another quick reference to the starvation plus point again - which happened well over a decade ago - then jumping to a post 10/7 point about it being justification on the part of the Israelis.

 

Pretty good listen - I think the teach in videos from a few weeks prior might be informative for some listeners. There are a series of them.

Link - 

 

 

Will leave it at this:

 

TRT World: You had for a time “given up” on their being any hope for Palestine. Has anything changed for you?

NF: Last Saturday morning.

Yes, I had given up. And I was not happy with that. I was held, taken to account for it by many Palestinians. But I was at a loss of what to do.

I'm nearly 70 years old. I invested the whole of my adult life into this [the Palestinian struggle for justice], though I reached a point where I believed these people [Palestinians] are just going to die, they're going to go the way of the American Indians. And there was nothing to be done. Saturday obviously changed my mind. I could never have anticipated that.

 

In Finkelstein fashion he doesn't say what that hope is just as he doesn't ever suggest any "solution" as he gave up on the two-state years ago.

 

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

Quote

The continued declaration that no one "is allowed to mention" pre Oct 7th seems strange as he has spent his entire life doing the opposite including in pretty much every time he speaks as well as this very discussion.

 

No-one is allowed to do it on the mainstream media though. Certainly not here. 

[TheHowieLama]

As an aside I assume we can now drop the "Western/Mainstream media blitz" takes that have been throughout this thread filled with Twitter and YouTube content.

The New York Times has @ 5.5 million subscribers. The podcast referenced above has had 5.1 million hits.

 

Twitter and YouTube are the "Western media."

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Jairzinho said:

 

No-one is allowed to do it on the mainstream media though. Certainly not here. 

 

Beat me to it by just a few seconds it seems.

[Jairzinho]

If it isn't on Sky, the BBC, Channel 4, or in a handful of newspapers, it isn't reaching the marginal voters who decide every single election in the UK.

[Fowlers God]

2 hours ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

 

Western nations will always be allied to Israel for a number of reason, but basically these 2:

 

1 - To help Jews have a place to call home after the horrors inflicted on Jewish people in WW2. The hope was to allow Jews to finally  feel safe from the ever-present antisemitic threat they experience.

2 - To have a strategically placed ally in a geopolitical hotspot. Israel/Palestine being right beside Iran/Iraq/Syria/Russia etc. This comes in handy should any major World War break out.You might also throw the whole access to Oil into that equation. 

 

The West can literally force Israel to stop. The Americans more or less pay for Israeli defence systems and weapons. 

 

I think most people just want Israel to cease the murder of innocent civilians (children especially) and let the Palestinians have a place to call home. You'd think after WW2 the Israelis would know more than most about needing a safe place to call home. 

 

Thanks for this

[Jairzinho]

Apologies of already posted. Bit of a porn for Gnasher here -

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

25 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

If it isn't on Sky, the BBC, Channel 4, or in a handful of newspapers, it isn't reaching the marginal voters who decide every single election in the UK.

 

I think there is a tendency for some folks to use the media controlling the "stupid" people as a copout. It is easier than accepting that sometimes there are significant percentages who agree with stuff that seems outrageous.

 

[Jurgen Knows]

25 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Just made it through the Candace Owens pod - thankfully she has very little airtime and doesn't pretend it is a debate, or even a two way conversation - providing a platform for Finkelstein, starting the segment with arguably his greatest "hit."

No one is more versed in the post '48 history of the area from the Palestinian side - he has always said he formulated his overall thesis very early in life and has dedicated it to that historical study as a means to an end. Not touched on in this interview is the "cost" some of his opinions have resulted in, specifically in the academic and speaking world. He has been honest about how that pisses him off.

 

As he makes many of the same valid points he has for years I will just make a couple comments.

 

In this pod he re-iterates that he is not pro Palestinian. He does make the same point I did about NYC having a very active Jewish community that is in alignment with the majority of the ROW.

He admits he is not an expert on Hamas. When he states that they weren't political at the time of the 2006 elections and did not even want to be involved - I disagree. His take on the corruption of Abbas and the PA is spot on and he does acknowledge that Hamas has lost the support of many Gazans as they have become equally, if not more, corrupt.

 

He "quotes" Clinton, using words she never said - there are other recent interviews where he suggests that what the US did in Chile and Nicaragua back up what he is suggesting - in his opinion.

 

His analogy between Hamas and Nat Turner to justify their actions is still hopeful at best. As it was when he trotted it out a month ago. He does have some stones to run it up the flagpole with a black American I'll give him that.

 

The continued declaration that no one "is allowed to mention" pre Oct 7th seems strange as he has spent his entire life doing the opposite including in pretty much every time he speaks as well as this very discussion.

 

He makes an interesting comment about crimes of humanity vs genocide - and imo he is conflicted there. First he states that what is happening now falls in between the two, then matter of factly states that it is a genocide.

That is at odds I think with his continued "mowing the lawn" assertions. There are 5 million Palestinians, citing instances of hundreds of deaths, even thousands - while being politically unacceptable worldwide and morally reprehensible individually, is categorically not genocide, imo he knows that.

 

Also, he kind of skates over the population growth question (one of Owens decent contributions albeit from a guest of a few days ago) by shoehorning in another quick reference to the starvation plus point again - which happened well over a decade ago - then jumping to a post 10/7 point about it being justification on the part of the Israelis.

 

Pretty good listen - I think the teach in videos from a few weeks prior might be informative for some listeners. There are a series of them.

Link - 

 

 

Will leave it at this:

 

TRT World: You had for a time “given up” on their being any hope for Palestine. Has anything changed for you?

NF: Last Saturday morning.

Yes, I had given up. And I was not happy with that. I was held, taken to account for it by many Palestinians. But I was at a loss of what to do.

I'm nearly 70 years old. I invested the whole of my adult life into this [the Palestinian struggle for justice], though I reached a point where I believed these people [Palestinians] are just going to die, they're going to go the way of the American Indians. And there was nothing to be done. Saturday obviously changed my mind. I could never have anticipated that.

 

In Finkelstein fashion he doesn't say what that hope is just as he doesn't ever suggest any "solution" as he gave up on the two-state years ago.

 

 

 

 

You seem to ignore the pulp of what he said and focus on the peel. 
 

I am not interested in the peel, but I have one comment to make:

 

You mentioned the “cost” he had to pay for voicing his opinions. That in itself answers your comment about his declaration that “no one is allowed to speak about pre-October 7”.
 

Thank you for the contribution.

[TheHowieLama]

Just Now - Israeli air strikes have killed at least 12 Palestinians sheltering in a Unrwa school in the Bureij refugee camp. 

 

Shite this.

 

Interestingly Finkelstein bases alot of his opinions on the refugee status granted to Palestinians and the UNRWA grants that in perpetuity to all 1948 descendants.. 

 

[Jurgen Knows]

The refugee status was forced by Israeli terrorist gangs on the Palestinians when they drove them out of their villages in 1948. 

[TheHowieLama]

No, gangs do not grant charitable status. They were refugees.

 

The interesting thing, which supports the concept of a lifelong concentration camp, is the in perpetuity part which is unique as Finkelstein acknowledges.

[Jurgen Knows]

What supports the reality of a lifelong concentration camp are the facts on the ground more than anything else.

[Jurgen Knows]

@TheHowieLama

 

Have a look at this while you assess whether Finkelstein was consistent enough in his use of the term “genocide”:

 

https://x.com/mai_gazan/status/1726622305349149069?s=46&t=rTM5huSAdkyumn9JrNS_MQ

[Jairzinho]

29 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

 

I think there is a tendency for some folks to use the media controlling the "stupid" people as a copout. It is easier than accepting that sometimes there are significant percentages who agree with stuff that seems outrageous.

 

 

I'm not referring to people who believe things which are outrageous. I'm talking about Mondeo man. He still reads the Times and takes the BBC seriously. 

 

The crackpots are on Twitter or watching GB News. But come election day they'll forget to vote or refuse to because of 5g masts or something. 

 

 

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

I don't have Twitter and can't see the quote.

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

I'm not referring to people who believe things which are outrageous. I'm talking about Mondeo man. He still reads the Times and takes the BBC seriously. 

 

The crackpots are on Twitter or watching GB News. But come election day they'll forget to vote or refuse to because of 5g masts or something. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea - agreed. The stereotype writes itself.

I do think that generational "turnover" for lack of a better word is happening at a vastly quicker rate than ever before and media/news/access to information is one of the best examples of that.