Energy Prices

[johnsusername]

5 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

I wonder what the council tax pizzo will be this year. Why is less and less costing more and more. Fucking people flying themselves into space because they have that much excess cash. There's going to be riots before long. Its not even trickle down economics anymore its take a sniff of this drip economics.

Council tax in Liverpool is wild, but I can't even blame the council as they've been gutted like a fish. I'm dreading the annual bill. 

 

Surely nationwide protests are inevitable? At least if we're all huddled together we can keep warm.

[johnsusername]

5 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

It's this blind pursuit of zero carbon that does my head in. For the avoidance of doubt, Im all in favour of being environmentally friendly, recycling (fuck knows the old girl gives me a real bollocking if I put something in the wrong recycling bin!) and cutting emissions.

 

But when other countries are pumping out 10 and 20 times the emissions we do, I dont agree with people being forced into fuel and payment poverty to meet targets of 2050 or even 2035.

 

Our house will never be suitable for these heat pump things. The ground floor is basically a fucking heat sucking concrete block that would need to be jack hammered out to install underfloor heating.

 

I'll probably be dead and buried by the time our next boiler needs replacing but how's the old girl going to find 20 grand to have one or more of those heat pump things installed? Fuck me, she feels the cold if the thermo is below 20 degrees as it is.

Yep. While poor old pensioners are freezing to death in their unheated homes they'll be glad to know with their last dying breath that we're aiming for carbon reductions. 

[Butch]

16 hours ago, johnsusername said:

Council tax in Liverpool is wild, but I can't even blame the council as they've been gutted like a fish. I'm dreading the annual bill. 

 

Surely nationwide protests are inevitable? At least if we're all huddled together we can keep warm.

Unfortunately Liverpool has been fucked over since that thatcher cunt. 

[Rico1304]

This is outrageous!  Told you it wasn’t well thought out. 
 

https://twitter.com/martinslewis/status/1489584984235065344?s=21

[sir roger]

Just a warning re the earlier discussion on British Gas Homeserve boiler cover , main story on Telegraph front page

( behind a paywall , but you can see it on the BBC online News newspaper round up ) Not good at all , but no worry , as ever ' lessons are being learned '

[Mudface]

23 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

This is outrageous!  Told you it wasn’t well thought out. 
 

 

Holy fuck. Talk about kicking the can. Are they planning on an early election?

 

 

[Rico1304]

12 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Holy fuck. Talk about kicking the can. Are they planning on an early election?

 

 

It’s worse than that, I suspect there’ll be more electricity accounts next year than this so they’ll be over recovering too.  I’ll find out next week but I bet the mechanism works something like this; 

 

Government: How many elec accounts do you have? 
 

Supplier: 1m 

 

Ok: Here’s 200m. 
 

2023

 

Government: How many elec accounts do you have? 

 

Supplier 1.1m

 

Government: Ok. Give me £40 x 1.1m = £44m 

 

Supplier: What if people don’t pay us? 
 

Government: Not my problem, see you next year.  
 

 

[Rushies tash]

3 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

This is outrageous!  Told you it wasn’t well thought out. 
 

https://twitter.com/martinslewis/status/1489584984235065344?s=21

And this is still being framed as Sunak being generous? Fuck sake.

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

And this is still being framed as Sunak being generous? Fuck sake.

It’s outrageous. There’s so many holes in it.  Imagine being a student or such and getting an account for the first time and having to pay of someone else’s loan. Bent.  

[Rushies tash]

50 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s outrageous. There’s so many holes in it.  Imagine being a student or such and getting an account for the first time and having to pay of someone else’s loan. Bent.  

If we can see how shit it is, why the fuck can't the news outlets?

[dockers_strike]

About fucking time although wont have any effect this winter.

 

Six North Sea oil and gas fields are set to be given the green light this year, The Telegraph has learnt, as Cabinet figures push back against “insane” demands to go further on net zero.

 

Rishi Sunak has asked Kwasi Kwarteng, the Business Secretary, to fast-track the licences amid Treasury fears over the economic impact of making the UK a net zero carbon emitter by 2050.

 

It is the latest sign of  tensions between Number 10 and Number 11 after the Treasury held back plans for bringing down NHS backlogs and demanded better value for money.

 

The Telegraph understands that Mr Sunak is also preparing to resist Boris Johnson’s high-spending instincts over public sector pay, measures to limit migrant Channel crossings and the scrapping of free Covid tests.

 

On Monday, the Prime Minister moved to play down suggestions of a rift with Mr Sunak – seen as a future Tory leadership contender – by responding “absolutely not” when asked whether he has doubts about the Chancellor’s loyalty.

 

He said: “Everybody in Number 10 and the Treasury are working together in harmony to deal with the big problems that the country faces and clearing the Covid backlogs.”

 

The six oil and gas areas, which have already been given a preliminary licence by ministers, are expected to be given approval by Britain’s oil and gas regulator to begin construction of rigs in the North Sea.

 

Despite calls for all domestic fossil fuel extraction to be halted, ministers have pledged to continue to support oil and gas production while renewable energy sources are developed.

 

Drilling of oil and gas could begin in the Rosebank field, to the west of Shetland, and at the Jackdaw, Marigold, Brodick and Catcher sites in the central North Sea. A sixth site, Tolmount East, had been intended to be approved by the Oil and Gas Authority last year but is now expected in 2022.

 

The combined reserves of all six sites are thought to be enough to power the whole UK for six months, with 62 million tonnes of oil equivalent fuel in the ground.

 

A Whitehall source told The Telegraph: “The Business Secretary is pushing for more investment into the North Sea while we transition – not just for jobs and tax revenue, but for domestic energy security.

“Kwasi is actively resisting insane calls from Labour and the eco-lobby to turn off UK production. Doing so would trash energy security, kill off 200,000 jobs, and we would only end up importing more from foreign countries with dubious records.

 

“Over the long term, we need to generate more secure, affordable, low carbon power in the UK to achieve greater energy independence. The more clean power we generate in the UK, the less exposed consumers will be to gas prices set by international markets.”

For much of the last year, Mr Johnson and Mr Sunak have privately tussled over the scale of public spending, with the Prime Minister more eager than the Chancellor to approve extra money.

 

With Mr Johnson weakened politically by a rebellion by some Tory MPs to oust him as leader, Mr Sunak is expected to be more robust in his opposition to new spending in the coming weeks.

 

Senior government sources who have seen the pair interact up close are predicting that Mr Sunak will take a tough line on spending when it comes to public sector pay settlements and policies to tackle the surge of migrant boats crossing the Channel.

 

The Chancellor is also expected to push to scrap mass free Covid testing by the end of next month, when the Government is set to publish a “living with Covid” strategy.

 

The installation of Steve Barclay, the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury under Mr Sunak, as Mr Johnson’s chief of staff could help the Chancellor in his drive to curb the Prime Minister’s instinct to approve more spending.

 

Mr Johnson has pledged that the UK will reach net zero by 2050, meaning that carbon emissions will be reduced to as close to zero as possible and remaining emissions will be absorbed by carbon “sinks” like forests or captured from the air by new technology.

But renewable energy sources, many of which are reliant on sunny or windy weather, are not yet well developed enough to provide the country’s power alone, while most homes are only equipped with gas-powered heating systems.

 

Since 2004, the UK has been a net importer of fuels and buys around half its gas from Norway, or from other countries, in liquid form.

Several Cabinet ministers believe the pace of net zero is too fast, and that the UK must continue exploring its domestic fossil fuel reserves to prevent it becoming over-reliant on foreign imports.

 

Although Britain imports little of its gas from Russia, the global market price is increasing amid tensions on the border with Ukraine.

Ministers’ continued belief in the fossil fuel industry will raise eyebrows in some quarters after the UK’s hosting of the Cop26 climate conference in Glasgow last year.

 

Labour has proposed a windfall tax on North Sea oil and gas producers to pay for a rebate for consumers amid rising energy bills.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/07/six-north-sea-oil-gas-fields-fired-amid-cabinet-row-net-zero/

 

And in other news, just whack up your energy use before you go on the trial!

 

Households will be paid to ration their power usage at peak times as the National Grid scrambles to reduce pressure on Britain's energy infrastructure.

 

From Friday up to 1.4m households will be paid if they cut their normal electricity consumption at certain two-hour periods during the day, as an experiment to see how households’ behavior might be changed.  

 

The move is a pilot scheme intended to pave the way for a broader overhaul of the country's billing system as the UK ditches reliable but dirty fossil fuel plants.

 

Officials want to encourage people to charge cars and use appliances at different times during the day and night to reduce the pressure on the electricity grid and limit the amount of new capacity that needs to be built as demand for electricity grows.

 

The results of the trial will help the National Grid Electricity System Operator (ESO), which manages Britain’s electricity supply and demand, work out how best to design and run the system as the UK shifts away from fossil fuels. 

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Isabelle Haigh, head of National Control at ESO, said: “System flexibility is vital to help manage and reduce peak electricity demand and keep Britain’s electricity flowing securely.

 

“This trial will provide valuable insight into how suppliers may be able to utilise domestic flexibility to help reduce stress on the system during high demand, lower balancing costs and deliver consumer benefits.”

 

Demand for electricity is set to soar in coming decades as millions of people ditch their petrol and diesel cars for electric models and swap gas-fired boilers for electric heat pumps or hydrogen made from renewable electricity, as part of the Government’s push to cut carbon emissions.

 

This will happen at the same time as coal and gas-fired power stations make way for more and more wind and solar power, which are intermittent, requiring greater management of the grid to make sure demand always matches supply to prevent possible blackouts.

The number of new power stations, batteries and other infrastructure projects that need to be available to meet that overall demand will depend on the extent of daily peak requirements - for example, when everyone comes home and switches on the kettle and television after work. 

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Officials want to see if they can lessen the peaks and spread out demand, for example by encouraging people to charge their cars overnight instead of when they get home, or running appliances when they are at work rather than in the evening. 

 

This could be achieved by energy suppliers rolling out time-of-use tariffs such as the Octopus’s Agile tariff, which means customers buy electricity at cheaper rates outside of peak hours, with appliances automatically set up to optimise their energy usage. 

 

In the trial running from Friday, 1.4m customers of Octopus Energy who have smart meters will get free electricity for certain defined two-hour periods, including 4.30pm to 6.30pm, if they cut their use below usual levels.

 

The trial builds on a similar effort Octopus Energy ran on November 5, 2020, when customers cut 60pc of their power usage over a two-hour event.

 

As well as spreading out demand, it is hoped electric cars could eventually be used as a sort of giant battery system, charging up when there is a lot of electricity being generated by wind turbines, and selling electricity back to the grid when needed if their owners do not need it at the same time.

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Guy Newey, of Energy Systems Catapult, said: “Making the whole system more flexible is an absolutely essential part of the transition [to a lower carbon grid].

 

“How do you make the most out of your energy infrastructure? Smart tariffs and digital technology has huge potential in that area.

“We don't know yet how consumers are going to respond. But if a lot of it's automated and going on in the background, and I know I'm going to get a slightly lower price, then I think we'll find that people are pretty happy to do that.

 

“And if that avoids the need to build however many gigawatts of new energy then that's potentially a really important saving for consumers. It’s all about making the system as smart as possible and this trial seems an important step in that direction.”

 

James Eddison, co-founder of Octopus Energy Group, said: “It’s a tremendous opportunity to unlock flexibility at an unprecedented scale, and we can’t wait to get started.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/08/national-grid-pays-households-ration-power-use/

 

[Rico1304]

How will this help?  

[Bobby Hundreds]

Why don't we just go nuclear. 

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Why don't we just go nuclear. 

I think some will when they get their next bill 

[dockers_strike]

16 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Why don't we just go nuclear. 

Apart from the fact successive Governments have scared off anyone wanting to build nuclear power stations, i gather they take about 10 years from planning to commissioning.

8 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I think some will when they get their next bill 

Haha, octopus have been pissing me about since they were made the supplier of last resort with Greg sending me emails about how great octopus are and their award winning 'kraken' IT system.

 

So I complained about the poor service and not getting monthly billing statements unless I asked them. They contacted me all apologetic and asked what could they do? I said start delivering what 'Greg' has told me I'll get in his regular emails and 25 quid goodwill to my account would be good.

 

Account credited with 25 quid. Suits me.

[Rico1304]

40 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Apart from the fact successive Governments have scared off anyone wanting to build nuclear power stations, i gather they take about 10 years from planning to commissioning.

Haha, octopus have been pissing me about since they were made the supplier of last resort with Greg sending me emails about how great octopus are and their award winning 'kraken' IT system.

 

So I complained about the poor service and not getting monthly billing statements unless I asked them. They contacted me all apologetic and asked what could they do? I said start delivering what 'Greg' has told me I'll get in his regular emails and 25 quid goodwill to my account would be good.

 

Account credited with 25 quid. Suits me.

I know Greg, when he stops crying I’ll suggest you go in as a consultant.  

[dockers_strike]

Enjoy! I worked on this for deregulation on Half Hour Data Aggregation but them days, you had to consume 100kw of leccie a year so was mainly companies not house holds. You get an extra couple of reads the day the clocks go back and a couple less when they go forward.

 

Of course 'Greg' loves the idea, he would, wouldnt he?

 

Smart meters are to automatically send energy suppliers half-hourly updates on their customers' power use in a revolutionary move that will allow "surge pricing" in millions of households' bills.

 

The energy regulator Ofgem will be granted legal powers in May allowing it to change the way smart meters operate, so that information about usage is sent to suppliers every 30 minutes by default.

 

Suppliers will be able to use the data to change consumer energy prices as much as 48 times per day, allowing them to charge more at peak times.

 

The plans are viewed by industry experts as a key stepping stone towards “time of use” tariffs, which would charge customers different rates for energy throughout the day depending on demand.

This could mean that households pay more during the busiest periods, raising the possibility that they could be penalised for watching television, boiling the kettle or charging gadgets at popular times such as mornings and evenings.

 

Advertisement

Consumer rights groups have also warned that people with poorly insulated homes, old-fashioned appliances or health conditions that require round-the-clock support may lose out without safeguards.

But energy company bosses and Ofgem on Tuesday insisted the plans will ultimately benefit most customers, saving them between £1.6bn and £4.5bn overall. 

 

This is because the changes will let more people take advantage of lower prices at “off peak” times, in turn easing demand at peak times and lowering prices for everyone. 

 

A timeline published by Ofgem says it will formally gain the powers to introduce the changes in May. They will be implemented by 2025.

Smart meters already have the capability to send half-hourly use reports to energy providers, but at present a customer must "opt in" to switch this on. Ofgem is intending to change the rules so that the updates are on by default. Customers who do not want to share this data will have to ask to "opt out".

Ofgem has said people who already have smart meters won’t have their preferences changed until they enter a new energy contract.

Advertisement

Households with a smart meter will also have to submit a mandatory reading every day, rather than once a month under the current provisions.

 

At present, suppliers typically do not know exactly how much power households are using throughout the day.

 

This means companies generally charge a flat rate for electricity and gas, although some including Octopus and British Gas have offered “free” power to customers during less busy times to encourage them to voluntarily share smart meter data.

 

With the advent of electric cars - which will increase pressure on the grid - understanding hourly usage patterns will become crucial. 

Ideally, Ofgem and energy companies want to encourage people to use less power during the busiest periods. This would mean less investment is needed for upgrading grid infrastructure.

 

Greg Jackson, chief executive of Octopus Energy, said: “This change would be extremely good for consumers. “I cannot imagine that any energy company is going to force time of use tariffs on customers, so it is like the reduced yellow-label food items at supermarkets. 

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“People who want a bargain can grab them, while everyone else benefits because it reduces waste.”

A spokesman for Ofgem said: “This major system upgrade is a significant milestone on Britain’s path to net zero. 

 

“It will enable a more efficient, flexible and greener energy system which will save billions of pounds per year on all consumers’ energy bills. 

 

“Ofgem will work closely with industry to make sure it delivers this major upgrade while ensuring those in vulnerable circumstances remain protected.”

 

Citizens Advice is broadly supportive as well but has previously warned that setting “normal” thresholds for energy use, and charging people more if they exceed them, could unfairly punish those who cannot easily change their habits.

 

“For example, energy inefficient housing with private landlords not taking action, large family sizes, or having old appliances in the home which they cannot afford to replace,” the consumer watchdog said.

“Someone’s ability to alter energy usage behaviour should also be taken into account. A dialysis patient needs a higher temperature in their home and should not be asked to compromise on that.”

Advertisement

Ofgem believes the changes will save all consumers money and spark a revolution in how power consumption is managed, potentially leading to peer-to-peer energy trading, gadgets that turn on at certain times and the use of electric car batteries to store household power - or sell it back to the grid. 

 

Martin Young, an energy analyst at Investec, said the overhaul would likely prompt more suppliers to offer time of use tariffs. He said: “Ultimately, this is all building towards a more flexible energy system and by extension flexible prices.

 

“But I would still think you will always still have a simple, more vanilla tariff for those who want them.”

 

Mr Young added that technology, such as electric cars which charge when energy is cheap and sell back to the grid at busy periods, may also cushion the impact of pricier periods on many consumers. 

The changes do not affect people with standard meters.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/08/smart-meter-overhaul-open-gates-surge-pricing/

[Rico1304]

This is remarkable, truly remarkable.  3 or 4 days after posting an article that says smart

meters are a waste of money we have another article praising an initiative that can only work WITH smart meters.  Not only that, he then claims credit for the whole thing.  
 

Obviously there’s the usual fundamental misunderstanding of the domestic supply business but we’re used to that.  

[stringvest]

9 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

Enjoy! I worked on this for deregulation on Half Hour Data Aggregation but them days, you had to consume 100kw of leccie a year so was mainly companies not house holds. You get an extra couple of reads the day the clocks go back and a couple less when they go forward.

 

Of course 'Greg' loves the idea, he would, wouldnt he?

 

Smart meters are to automatically send energy suppliers half-hourly updates on their customers' power use in a revolutionary move that will allow "surge pricing" in millions of households' bills.

 

The energy regulator Ofgem will be granted legal powers in May allowing it to change the way smart meters operate, so that information about usage is sent to suppliers every 30 minutes by default.

 

Suppliers will be able to use the data to change consumer energy prices as much as 48 times per day, allowing them to charge more at peak times.

 

The plans are viewed by industry experts as a key stepping stone towards “time of use” tariffs, which would charge customers different rates for energy throughout the day depending on demand.

This could mean that households pay more during the busiest periods, raising the possibility that they could be penalised for watching television, boiling the kettle or charging gadgets at popular times such as mornings and evenings.

 

Advertisement

Consumer rights groups have also warned that people with poorly insulated homes, old-fashioned appliances or health conditions that require round-the-clock support may lose out without safeguards.

But energy company bosses and Ofgem on Tuesday insisted the plans will ultimately benefit most customers, saving them between £1.6bn and £4.5bn overall. 

 

This is because the changes will let more people take advantage of lower prices at “off peak” times, in turn easing demand at peak times and lowering prices for everyone. 

 

A timeline published by Ofgem says it will formally gain the powers to introduce the changes in May. They will be implemented by 2025.

Smart meters already have the capability to send half-hourly use reports to energy providers, but at present a customer must "opt in" to switch this on. Ofgem is intending to change the rules so that the updates are on by default. Customers who do not want to share this data will have to ask to "opt out".

Ofgem has said people who already have smart meters won’t have their preferences changed until they enter a new energy contract.

Advertisement

Households with a smart meter will also have to submit a mandatory reading every day, rather than once a month under the current provisions.

 

At present, suppliers typically do not know exactly how much power households are using throughout the day.

 

This means companies generally charge a flat rate for electricity and gas, although some including Octopus and British Gas have offered “free” power to customers during less busy times to encourage them to voluntarily share smart meter data.

 

With the advent of electric cars - which will increase pressure on the grid - understanding hourly usage patterns will become crucial. 

Ideally, Ofgem and energy companies want to encourage people to use less power during the busiest periods. This would mean less investment is needed for upgrading grid infrastructure.

 

Greg Jackson, chief executive of Octopus Energy, said: “This change would be extremely good for consumers. “I cannot imagine that any energy company is going to force time of use tariffs on customers, so it is like the reduced yellow-label food items at supermarkets. 

Advertisement

“People who want a bargain can grab them, while everyone else benefits because it reduces waste.”

A spokesman for Ofgem said: “This major system upgrade is a significant milestone on Britain’s path to net zero. 

 

“It will enable a more efficient, flexible and greener energy system which will save billions of pounds per year on all consumers’ energy bills. 

 

“Ofgem will work closely with industry to make sure it delivers this major upgrade while ensuring those in vulnerable circumstances remain protected.”

 

Citizens Advice is broadly supportive as well but has previously warned that setting “normal” thresholds for energy use, and charging people more if they exceed them, could unfairly punish those who cannot easily change their habits.

 

“For example, energy inefficient housing with private landlords not taking action, large family sizes, or having old appliances in the home which they cannot afford to replace,” the consumer watchdog said.

“Someone’s ability to alter energy usage behaviour should also be taken into account. A dialysis patient needs a higher temperature in their home and should not be asked to compromise on that.”

Advertisement

Ofgem believes the changes will save all consumers money and spark a revolution in how power consumption is managed, potentially leading to peer-to-peer energy trading, gadgets that turn on at certain times and the use of electric car batteries to store household power - or sell it back to the grid. 

 

Martin Young, an energy analyst at Investec, said the overhaul would likely prompt more suppliers to offer time of use tariffs. He said: “Ultimately, this is all building towards a more flexible energy system and by extension flexible prices.

 

“But I would still think you will always still have a simple, more vanilla tariff for those who want them.”

 

Mr Young added that technology, such as electric cars which charge when energy is cheap and sell back to the grid at busy periods, may also cushion the impact of pricier periods on many consumers. 

The changes do not affect people with standard meters.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/02/08/smart-meter-overhaul-open-gates-surge-pricing/

is this somehow new news?  Are we in 2019?

 

[dockers_strike]

23 minutes ago, stringvest said:

is this somehow new news?  Are we in 2019?

 

You and your tart clearly didnt read the article in full, did you?

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

You and your tart clearly didnt read the article in full, did you?

Can you tell me how this article compares to the one you posted last week saying smart meters are shite?  

[stringvest]

2 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

You and your tart clearly didnt read the article in full, did you?

So what is it you object about in the article thickshit?  

 

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

You and your tart clearly didnt read the article in full, did you?

Can you tell me how this article compares to the one you posted last week saying smart meters are shite?  

[dockers_strike]

8 minutes ago, stringvest said:

So what is it you object about in the article thickshit?  

 

Object to the article?! How the holy fuck do you come to that blinkered opinion?

 

I posted the info so people who may be interested in the article behind a paywall (that I dont pay for by the way, there's a simple hack to beat the torygraph's paywall that works for me!) could read it.

 

My opinion on SMETS is unchanged: it's a huge costly project that is costing consumers over £11bn on their bills that delivers fuck all to them in the form of material savings.

[stringvest]

11 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

 

My opinion on SMETS is unchanged: it's a huge costly project that is costing consumers over £11bn on their bills that delivers fuck all to them in the form of material savings.

That's only because you're too sort-sighted to see further than the nose on your face.   Here's a couple of questions for you:  What huge costs do you think might be avoided if the spikes for demand can be flattened out?  And who would pay if those costs could not be avoided?  What low-level intelligence might be incorporated into home systems or white goods over the next 10 years?