Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Jimmy is probably posting lots of valid stuff in here, but I'm just ignoring all his posts after his double account debacle.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Genuine question, has that changed since Feb this year?

 

This article indicates the ECJ could intervene as of judgements in Feb 2016 in cases involving the UK and Spain.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/04/theresa-may-cant-deport-moroccan-mother-with-criminal-record-eu-court

The role of the ECJ hasn't changed since long before the UK joined the EEC.  Laws are agreed by all Member States; the ECJ makes rulings to ensure that the laws are applied equally throughout the EU.  In the cases mentioned here, the ECJ ruled that the rights of children who were EU citizens should not be violated by Member States.

 

As a side issue, I have never heard any convincing argument to support the deportation of foreign ex-cons.  Under current UK law, two people in near-identical circumstances (one a British citizen, the other not) can commit identical crimes and serve identical sentences; on release, one will be considered rehabilitated and ready to rejoin society, the other will be deemed unsafe to remain and will be given the additional punishment of deportation, often to a country that they have long since broken all ties with.  It's unjust and absurd.

[jimmycase]

The role of the ECJ hasn't changed since long before the UK joined the EEC.  Laws are agreed by all Member States; the ECJ makes rulings to ensure that the laws are applied equally throughout the EU.  In the cases mentioned here, the ECJ ruled that the rights of children who were EU citizens should not be violated by Member States.

 

As a side issue, I have never heard any convincing argument to support the deportation of foreign ex-cons.  Under current UK law, two people in near-identical circumstances (one a British citizen, the other not) can commit identical crimes and serve identical sentences; on release, one will be considered rehabilitated and ready to rejoin society, the other will be deemed unsafe to remain and will be given the additional punishment of deportation, often to a country that they have long since broken all ties with.  It's unjust and absurd.

 

Yes, the two cases involved children who were EU Nationals. So presumably a crim who's an EU national and tagged for deportation ie serious crime in the UK and sentenced to 12 or more months, would have the same avenue to fight UK Deportation.

 

It doesnt matter whether you (or I) have heard convincing argument. That, falls to the judiciary to determine.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Yes, the two cases involved children who were EU Nationals. So presumably a crim who's an EU national and tagged for deportation ie serious crime in the UK and sentenced to 12 or more months, would have the same avenue to fight UK Deportation.

 

It doesnt matter whether you (or I) have heard convincing argument. That, falls to the judiciary to determine.

The ECJ said, in that case, that there could be exceptions, based on the severity of the crime.  As I read that report, the key point about the children is that they are EU citizens who have committed no crime and therefore shouldn't be deported.  If it was an EU citizen who had committed a crime, that would be a different matter.

 

As to the second point, the UK Parliament passed a law (which, in my view, is a silly, arbitrary and unjust law) and the judiciary implement it.  It would need a political campaign to overturn it, but I don't see that happening.  I just think it's odd that there are so many arguments and controversies about how many ex-cons are waiting to be deported, but nobody seems to be asking the obvious question about whether there is anything to be gained by deporting them.

[jimmycase]

The ECJ said, in that case, that there could be exceptions, based on the severity of the crime.  As I read that report, the key point about the children is that they are EU citizens who have committed no crime and therefore shouldn't be deported.  If it was an EU citizen who had committed a crime, that would be a different matter.

 

As to the second point, the UK Parliament passed a law (which, in my view, is a silly, arbitrary and unjust law) and the judiciary implement it.  It would need a political campaign to overturn it, but I don't see that happening.  I just think it's odd that there are so many arguments and controversies about how many ex-cons are waiting to be deported, but nobody seems to be asking the obvious question about whether there is anything to be gained by deporting them.

 

So clearly if there are exceptions, crims could exploit that avenue and still use the ECJ to usurp UK Courts.

 

You say you think the law is silly arbitray and unjust. You're entitled to that opinion. The will of Parliament disagrees and carries the day though.

[Brownie]

Jimmy is probably posting lots of valid stuff in here, but I'm just ignoring all his posts after his double account debacle.

He's not.

[Brownie]

It makes me laugh seeing people arguing about the nuances of criminal law in this debate. Issues which they'll probably not have spoken of before and probably won't again.

 

Surely you have to look at this from the angle of how the vote will affect day to day life for you, your family and everyone else?

 

Are people really going to wake up on the 24th and think "is right, European courts can no longer blah blah blah"?

[jimmycase]

It makes me laugh seeing people arguing about the nuances of criminal law in this debate. Issues which they'll probably not have spoken of before and probably won't again.

 

Surely you have to look at this from the angle of how the vote will affect day to day life for you, your family and everyone else?

 

Are people really going to wake up on the 24th and think "is right, European courts can no longer blah blah blah"?

 

Naive in the extreme but Im not surprised.

[Brownie]

Naive in the extreme but Im not surprised.

So you are going to wake up and think that then?!

 

Haha nice one.

 

Then again, you're someone who woke up one day and thought, "you know what, I fancy having an alter-ego" so you know...

[TheHowieLama]

Wake Up!!!

[Brownie]

Wake Up!!!

Go to bed!!

[TheHowieLama]

Both of you! (allegedly)

[Hades]

There are only two political truths one needs to know:

 

There are enough resources in the world to fully automate the majority of work and feed, house, clothe and offer medical support to every human being in the world.

 

The vast majority of the labour you do under capitalism does not enrich you or the state, but goes to über-rich bourgeois capitalists.

[Anubis]

What's with the alter-ego, dual account stuff? Have I missed something?

[Rico1304]

There are only two political truths one needs to know:

 

There are enough resources in the world to fully automate the majority of work and feed, house, clothe and offer medical support to every human being in the world.

 

The vast majority of the labour you do under capitalism does not enrich you or the state, but goes to über-rich bourgeois capitalists.

What about the lizards?

[Nightcat]

You should hold a referendum to fuck off from this planet too and you make sure you win that. Just take your paedos, your shapeshifting reptilians, your clarksons, your oasis and off you go to another Galaxy.

 

Please leave back Merseyside and Scotland.

[Nightcat]

How did your establishment manage to turn a referendum on leaving a corrupt superstate(the EU), into yet another prosecution of poor people, proletarians and migrants? Amazing.

 

If it wasn't the migrants then who would rent those mould filthed properties and enable their landlords to live a rich life and buy more properties and become even richer.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Does my head in a bit the way people who want out are characterised as thick or racist. In many ways, it's this smarm that's led to people being disenchanted with Europe and the London elite in the first place. Why does the fact Stephen Hawking knows shit about dark matter make him an expert on geopolitics?

The thing is, a good proportion of them just so happen - totally without coincidence, I'm sure - to be thick and/or racist.

[Red Phoenix]

Jimmy is probably posting lots of valid stuff in here, but I'm just ignoring all his posts after his double account debacle.

 

I've been ignoring a big part of this thread actually, because I think most of the pro-EU rabble are momo alts.

[Red Phoenix]

While I'm here, I read this the other day and didn't see it linked at the time, apologies if it's already here now (am sure some of you can understand me not wanting to trawl back through about 10 pages of this thread to check.) A rare Grauniad article that I didn't mind : Ridiculing Brexiters is a sure way to lose the argument for staying in the EU

[SilverSong]

There are only two political truths one needs to know:

 

There are enough resources in the world to fully automate the majority of work and feed, house, clothe and offer medical support to every human being in the world.

 

The vast majority of the labour you do under capitalism does not enrich you or the state, but goes to über-rich bourgeois capitalists.

Hades knows.

[jimmycase]

There is certainly enough food in the world to feed every starving person. Kissinger said in the 80's hungry should be eradicated by the end of the decade. It could have been but wasnt. Some of the despots around the World must share their blame for that.

 

Im not convinced every job in the World could be automated though.

[Jairzinho]

Despots like the IMF and the World Bank.

[VladimirIlyich]

Is jimmycase momo?

[Rico1304]

Hades knows.

Two words I thought I'd never see.