Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[njackets]

I am not enthused by arguments by any of the advocates from either camp nor do I have any great love for the institutions of the European Union but i am absolutely convinced that the least worst option is to stay in. Boris fucking Johnson is a self serving cunt and i don't believe he is ideologically wedded to the arguments for leaving. He took his time to decide which way to jump simply because he was calculating the effect it would have on his leadership prospects . I have more respect for that idiot Farage , At least he believes in the shite he comes out with,

 

The question boils down to . Do we still want to travel freely around Europe and to continue to trade with them to the extent we do currently ?

Anyone saying we will still be able to do that and at the same time close our borders is fooling themselves, The whole fucking mess exit would create will cost us billions and take years and years to sort out . In the end we will have to play by Europe's rules anyway. The idea of complete independence is a fucking myth at best and a lie when it comes from knowledgeable politicians like Johnson. Ask the Swiss if they have the best of both worlds.

 

There is a security dimension as well and whilst its not been widely discussed Russia under Putin is without doubt looking to expand its sphere of influence and a EU that is falling apart will be a gift from heaven for them. All the talk of NATO not being weakened if the UK leaves is bollocks, A weaker political union will knock on to foreign policy and defense,

We're leaving NATO now are we?

[magicrat]

We're leaving NATO now are we?

That's not what i said is it

[Barrington Womble]

People who are thinking about voting stay need to ask themselves this question; what happens if we stay in?

 

Leaving aside any xenophobia, the objective of the EU is closer political, social and monetary ties. the UK has numerous opt outs although despite cameron's claims to the contrary, his latest 'reforms' will not be voted on by other member states until our referendum. It goes without saying they could vote for his and the UK's 'reforms' to be applied to the UK but, its equally possible the rest of the member states could refuse to vote them in.

 

Then what?

 

And what of the closer ties the other member states want and are working towards? The UK is one of 3 or 4 other members who dont want to go down that route. So, they and we, will be consigned to a second rate type of membership. Why do you want to be in a club where you opt out of all the supposedly pertinent and important aims of the club? Why do you want to be a second class member with less say, less influence, less status and, to all intents and purposes be dictated to by the others?

 

We have the power of veto - we can use it as and when it suits our national interest. If we attempt to opt out of particular things along the way, it seems better than opting out of everything. Let's look at Norway's model, get a say on nothing, yet still need to massively contribute financially to gain access to the market. 

 

As for the other member states all wanting to work towards greater unity, well i am not that sure about that, there's plenty of states who don't want to and they have they power of veto too. Maybe it was a small number a few years ago, but I don't think that is the case any more. 

 

As for the cameron reforms, they amounted to fuck all anyway. If the other EU members can't get them through their parliaments or whichever way their state signs it off, well we'll have to get back to the negotiating table - it's hardly going to be the end of the world is it? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

We're leaving NATO now are we?

We fucking should, but that's for another thread.

[Stu Monty]

"Got our borders back!" 'because of the immigrants'...pointless getting into a debate when snide comments like this are made whenever you reply.

No, I make sensible posts and you summise them as "The Tories will get us" you dickhead.

 

If you want to sit on the grown ups table stop throwing your jelly about.

[Stu Monty]

People who are thinking about voting stay need to ask themselves this question; what happens if we stay in?

 

Leaving aside any xenophobia, the objective of the EU is closer political, social and monetary ties. the UK has numerous opt outs although despite cameron's claims to the contrary, his latest 'reforms' will not be voted on by other member states until our referendum. It goes without saying they could vote for his and the UK's 'reforms' to be applied to the UK but, its equally possible the rest of the member states could refuse to vote them in.

 

Then what?

 

And what of the closer ties the other member states want and are working towards? The UK is one of 3 or 4 other members who dont want to go down that route. So, they and we, will be consigned to a second rate type of membership. Why do you want to be in a club where you opt out of all the supposedly pertinent and important aims of the club? Why do you want to be a second class member with less say, less influence, less status and, to all intents and purposes be dictated to by the others?

Why do you want to stand outside that club and still have them make decisions that massively impact you?

 

Also, we aren't second class members. We are hugely powerful in the bloc, and will remain so.

[njackets]

No, I make sensible posts and you summise them as "The Tories will get us" you dickhead.

 

If you want to sit on the grown ups table stop throwing your jelly about.

You did exactly the same thing with your "We'll get our borders back" you Dickhead! Stu why is it you cant debate with anyone in here without throwing silly insults at them by the way?

[njackets]

That's not what i said is it

Fair one, I miss read that be interested to hear how NATO would weaken with us leaving the EU though?

[njackets]

Brexit The Movie..fucking ruined with the odd clip of Kelvin fucking Mckenzie! If you can stomach seeing him for 2/3 10sec clips its well worth the watch if you have an hour to spare.. Oh and I dont think immigration is mentioned once!

 

[Anubis]

....you dickhead.

I don't agree with Njackets, but come on, Stu.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Britain is an ageing population. The fact is we don't produce enough kids that will pay for our Health Care and Pensions, so if we curb immigration then we'll need to get very busy in the bedroom.

 

Either that or accept we'll need to work forever......

Lay back and think of Blighty, baby.

 

I'm in.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Vote to stay, vote with the global banking elite...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/11/official-pro-european-union-campaign-is-part-funded-by-goldman-s/?WT.mc_id=e_DM117936&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient&utm_source=email&utm_medium=Edi_FAM_New_AEM_Recipient_2016_05_12&utm_campaign=DM117936

Yes, we were ever so soft on bankers previous to joining the EU. I mean, it's not like they go to school and university with those who'll be deciding their fate, is it?

 

What I hate most about the leave lobby is their faux air of authority and intelligence on the matter. You get bricklayers and bin men talking as if they're economic scholars because they read a ukip pamphlet.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't agree with Njackets, but come on, Stu.

To be fair to Stu, he has been a bit of a dickhead.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

yes.

 

im not a tory.

 

we can always rejoin when we have a govt that can be trusted.

Tories, in general, want to leave Europe. The thought of having Tories in power with no oversight from Europe is not a fun prospect. I urge you to vote with your head and not your hatred of one slimy cunt.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The word "Brexit" annoys the fuck out of me.

 

That is all it takes for me to vote Remain.

[skend04]

Brexit The Movie..fucking ruined with the odd clip of Kelvin fucking Mckenzie! If you can stomach seeing him for 2/3 10sec clips its well worth the watch if you have an hour to spare.. Oh and I dont think immigration is mentioned once!

 

https://vimeo.com/166378572

The video makes some decent points but when the gist of it is getting rid of every EU regulation along with worker's rights so that we resemble a 19th century version of Britain there's got to be something amiss.

 

By the way I was having a conversation with my old dear, cajoling her into voting in and she asked about immigration in that weird tone. She's a dinner lady in an inner city school, with a high number of immigrant and refugee pupils. My answer was to stop bombing the middle east and start making commonwealth immigration strictly points based, I mean do we really need Aussies coming over here and stealing our bar jobs? As for (my fellow) Indians, there are probably more here illegally and not paying tax than there are from the EU who only come when they've usually got a job lined up. That last bit didn't go down well and I could have handed BoJo a vote.

[Jairzinho]

If you want to sit on the grown ups table stop throwing your jelly about.

 

In my opinion, it was slightly too soon to rehash what is, undoubtedly, one of the most scything put downs in internet argument.

[Rico1304]

From the Guardian

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/13/brexit-perfect-gift-vladimir-putin-eu?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Section_31]

From the Guardian

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/13/brexit-perfect-gift-vladimir-putin-eu?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

why would it be the perfect gift for Putin though? Because he wants to invade Europe or because he sees the whole project's eastern expansion plans purely as a method of neutralising his country's influence?

 

I'm all for staying in the EU, devil you know and all that, but the idea that it's some kind of source of military strength is hilarious, they're a gang of shithouses. 

[VladimirIlyich]

"Got our borders back!" 'because of the immigrants'...pointless getting into a debate when snide comments like this are made whenever you reply.

Immigrants aside,what are your reasons for wanting to leave the EU?

[Stu Monty]

You did exactly the same thing with your "We'll get our borders back" you Dickhead! Stu why is it you cant debate with anyone in here without throwing silly insults at them by the way?

Apart from the fact that in this thread I'm disagreeing with everyone other than you in a civil way.

 

But when I put detailed posts to you I get cretinous replies.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

why would it be the perfect gift for Putin though? Because he wants to invade Europe or because he sees the whole project's eastern expansion plans purely as a method of neutralising his country's influence?

 

I'm all for staying in the EU, devil you know and all that, but the idea that it's some kind of source of military strength is hilarious, they're a gang of shithouses.

NATO is the threat, not the EU per se.

Unfortunately, NATO membership seems to be an unspoken prerequisite to EU membership.

[Duncan Clench]

I'm on the fence still. Well, I'm leaning towards remain but I don't think they're putting much of an argument forward. The out campaign talk of things we would gain, and things we would lose that don't benefit us anyway. The in campaign seems to just offer up 'it'll be bad if we leave' but without much explanation or explaining the real benefits of staying. I guess that's because it seems to work as it is, so no change is better than the risk of change.

 

The niggling thing for me though is that I can't help thinking that being more independent would actually stimulate industry and perhaps even motivate the shite generation of people who either want something for nothing or work for the sake of earning money rather than having pride in what they do.

 

Genuine question: how good is our membership of the EU for industry?

[Curly]

I didn't realise we were thinking of leaving the EU. Must have completely passed me by this. I'm surprised there hasn't been more media coverage with a catchy handle to help us buy into it a bit more. Something like "Eurex" or "ExUK".

[skend04]

I'm on the fence still. Well, I'm leaning towards remain but I don't think they're putting much of an argument forward. The out campaign talk of things we would gain, and things we would lose that don't benefit us anyway. The in campaign seems to just offer up 'it'll be bad if we leave' but without much explanation or explaining the real benefits of staying. I guess that's because it seems to work as it is, so no change is better than the risk of change.

 

The niggling thing for me though is that I can't help thinking that being more independent would actually stimulate industry and perhaps even motivate the shite generation of people who either want something for nothing or work for the sake of earning money rather than having pride in what they do.

 

Genuine question: how good is our membership of the EU for industry?

I think this is difficult, how do you promote or quantify what you already have? The Leave side can say anything they want, they aren't really starting from any base point. Thus the only thing Remain can effectively say is what it'd cost the average person if they voted to exit the EU. A referendum is not really a pitch to govern.