Letting the heart rule the head

[Antynwa]

Gerard Houllier, the man who once lectured in Liverpool and who many perceived at the time to be the 'epitome' of the Liverpool Way. A Man who gave LFC it's honour back, but was part of a period which saw most of it taken back.

 

We as Liverpool Fans are generally faithful, we stand up for our own in the face of adversity and lies. We look to defend when criticised and always stand by our own. A two fingered salute the establishment. Even when shit hit the fan with the likes of Houllier and Roy Evans a large proportion of our fans where faithful to the end, however at what cost?

 

The Liverpool Way is a term branded about a lot by fans, the press and managers alike. Other than being a website and a fanzine. What is the Liverpool way? You ask one fan what it is, and you ask another and you will probably get two totally different responses. Personally, I think whatever the Liverpool Way is, it isn't a tool, it isn't a methodology, not any more, not since Shanks and Paisley, it's nothing more than a loose term to describe ones own feelings towards Liverpool FC. I always believed LFC was different to all other clubs, I suppose you ask a Fulham fan for example and he'll tell you the same thing, but with ourselves I just see this long list of honours both physically and in terms of being an honourable club. There is something special about this club, whether that is the 'Liverpool Way' I have no idea, but when you follow this club the sacrifices that many people have made for this club it all seems to show the importance that the club has with many peoples lives.

 

This season has seen us in one of the worst runs since the 'Darkest days of Houllier'. We play awful football, our team is performing worse than it should be, and all after one of the most successful campaigns since we last won the league. Are we just in the middle of a full cycle, has our best chance to win the league gone for good, and are the similarities with Houllier's last years simply too strong to be 'similarities'?

 

Everyone remembers when it went wrong with Houllier, or at least many people feel as if they know it went wrong. We stood by him for a while, we gave him the benefit of the doubt, after all this was a man who 'Gave us our pride back'. However, the rest is history and he never recovered.

 

I have stated before the similarities between both reigns, but one thing which convinced me this is going the same way is the posting. Not just on this, but on every other Liverpool forum.

 

I see posts defending the manager, which I myself have no problem with but it gets to the point where it is almost mind-numbingly frustrating to read, it isn't really about defending the manager. It goes back to my original points, it's a two fingered salute to the establishment. I am specifically talking about punditry, and Andy Gray.

 

Now look, Andy Gray, he's neither here or there for me, he's a product, he's marmite, he says some things that make sense, and he chats some absolute horseshit. With Andy Gray, the truth usually hurts, but the one thing I notice about him is that he knows the way, but doesn't know how to drive the car.

 

Take for example, the 'Zonal Marking' argument. I myself have no problem with it, it's a proven system and has worked many times for us. However this season, it hasn't don't ask me why, but it just hasn't and we are now into December and it looks as if WE MIGHT actually be back to normal, although thats too early to indicate just yet. I have read many posts criticising Andy Gray but I find myself saying 'Hang on, he may not know the solution, but we do have a problem, why is our questioning aimed at this man but not Benitez' Andy Gray in many peoples eyes is that 'establishment' he's part of that awful, nasty band of bastards that are really nasty to our manager'. But we need to get it into our head IMO that we are currently in the middle of one of our worst runs going, questions are always going to be asked, and they are always going to be asked at the biggest clubs.

 

Now I couldn't go this far without mentioning the owners, and as the cancer as I believe they are, we still need to get back to basics, we are not accountants, Net Spend, wages etc. Football isn't that complicated, you can point to other clubs, but one thing has stood that we are still one of the biggest clubs in the land, with the best players at our disposal, make no mistake we are still the club that many clubs admire and strive to emulate.

 

We finished 2nd last year, it wasn't an over-achievement, we where exactly where we needed to be in terms of a '5 Year Plan'. Don't let finances dictate expectations, we did well last season, and we could have done better. Skip forward to this summer, we lost Alonso however that being said he didn't star in our win v United. Anyway we sold Alonso, replaced him with Aquilani and strengthened our defence. The title winners United lost the best player in the world, replaced him with a winger from Wigan and an injury prone relegated striker in Owen. That is essentially what happened last summer. Now how come we are worse? How come we are now in this position. It isn't the owners, the owners....you know what, fuck it you know the story and the arguments of this season...So I'll skip to the end.

 

When we sacked Houllier we went down the same route as we did when we first got him in. 'The 5 Year Plan' ever since we last won the league, each manager has been given the 5 year plan, the 5 year plan to deliver the league. Each manager nearly coming close to winning it, but always having different, fatal flaws. My question is now, do we go against 'The Liverpool Way'? Do we go against the mythical methods that are supposed to bring us the league, but haven't since 1990? Football is a changed game, especially in this league, you earn nothing but pointless brownie points striving to be different but always falling short. Are we giving Benitez more time because people feel we are duty bound because people believe in these methods, or are we giving him it because we believe he can rectify this situation?

 

Or are we simply going around in an endless cycle, one step foward, two steps back 5 more years and a terrible last two. Have we been in this situation before? Is it about time we took ANOTHER approach, is it about time we tried something different, is it about time we actually put the CLUB first?

 

I admire loyalty, I always have done and always will do, but I find myself falling out of love with the manager, with the team just like I did with Houllier, I find myself looking at the side and going 'Why the fuck aren't we doing better?'

 

I want to be proven wrong, but I feel as If I've been down this muddy, dark road before. Big wins against Everton and United pale into insignificance when compared to losses v Villa and Fiorentina.

 

5 Years down the line, this isn't good enough

 

7 Years ago, we gave Houllier more time, and found ourselves worse off.

 

Is it about time, we actually done something different, is it about time 'The Liverpool Way' was used as motivation for the club, rather than the manager? I really don't know where I am going with this, so I just leave you with a simple opinion.

 

We are going back to the days of Houllier, another manager could have done better with what he has, if we don't get rid of Benitez soon it will be too late, we need to make a decision fast before we get too far away that we need to go back to the 5 Year Plan.

[Heinze]

where was that copy and pasted from?

 

tldr.

[ngogswilly]

Good read. I find myself agreeing with alot of it. But Benitez should be given to the end of the season.

We're either gonna finish 4th or we're not. Its a sickening position to be in but what can we do.No matter who we get in,they're either gonna finish 4th or worse, same as Benitez.

May aswel stick with him at least till the summer.

[Maldini]

Couldn't you have put this in one of the other 24 "Rafa Out" threads you started this week?

[Antynwa]

Good read. I find myself agreeing with alot of it. But Benitez should be given to the end of the season.

We're either gonna finish 4th or we're not. Its a sickening position to be in but what can we do.No matter who we get in,they're either gonna finish 4th or worse, same as Benitez.

May aswel stick with him at least till the summer.

 

But this is the thing, 4th or not especially after finishing 2nd isn't good enough.

 

We've had owners who have sat on their hands whilst others go ahead of us, we as a club, as fans and our players simply cannot do that anymore. We need to show our stature, we need to be ruthless.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Couldn't you have put this in one of the other 24 "Rafa Out" threads you started this week?

 

Every forum member has the own fucking "Rafa Out" thread judging by the first page alone.

 

I'm so important, that I need my own thread.

[Dirty Parry]

cant be arsed. ged did well for the club them it went tits up. same with rafa. its gone tits up. he's even having a rant in the papers all the time. now hes having a go at klinsmann and souness. why? if he isnt troubled by then hed ignore them. but he knows hes up shit creek so has to look like hes fighting his corner. its going tits up for rafa only hes too stubborn to see it just like ged.

[JohnnyH]

Hmmmmmm. Rafa should be sacked? It's a new slant that I haven't seen before. I may have to think about this.

 

 

One thing though. The comment "Don't let finances dictate expectations" is so absurd it's amazing.

 

What made Blackburn win the title? What made Chelsea into champions? Did Utd spend money?

 

People can wrangle all different ways around investment in the team not been importand, but they are fooling themselves.

 

Chelsea finish second in 2004, so they spent £74m on first team players that summer to bridge the gap. £74m.

[Moo]

Who gave Benitez a 5 year plan?

Perhaps this mythical 5 year plan is the problem. It's an arbitrary number which doesn't take into account the prevailing conditions at the time.

So let's just change manager every 5 years shall we if he doesn't win the league, irrespective of whatever else is going on around us?

Yeah, I'd be really proud to support that club.

 

As for defending Benitez against outside criticism, Gray et al, well they are the least important of the gobshites to be honest. There's people, from very well known to not at all, far closer to home who enjoy sticking the boot in. Fair criticism is fine, made up, twisted bullshit is not.

"With friends like these..."

[Lucky Pierre]

Chelsea finish second in 2004, so they spent £74m on first team players that summer to bridge the gap. £74m.

And that season in 03 they signed

Johnson - £6M

Geremi - £7M

Bridge - £7M

Duff - £17M

Cole - £6.5M

Veron - £15M

Mutu - £16M

Crespo - £17M

Makelele - £16M

Parker - £10M

 

So spent over £117M on the squad before that £70M

[Chinandeler Bong]

Rafa is just trying to buy himself more time with all the recent talk of debt management bollox over the summer , yes he may have a point (about the debt) but he cant seem to motivate the players anymore for me.

[Little Sammy]

It all depends really.

 

If managers like Hiddink and Mourinho are available and willing to join (highly unlikely) then I hope the club does what should be done and sacks Benitez. If not, I will give him until May, by which time we would either end up in fourth place or lower. Neither scenario is good enough for Liverpool Football Club, so he should at least be shown the door at the end of the season,.

[Antynwa]

It all depends really.

 

If managers like Hiddink and Mourinho are available and willing to join (highly unlikely) then I hope the club does what should be done and sacks Benitez. If not, I will give him until May, by which time we would either end up in fourth place or lower. Neither scenario is good enough for Liverpool Football Club, so he should at least be shown the door at the end of the season,.

 

But haven't we been through this all before?

 

People forget that when Houllier left we where competing with Chelsea, the Arsenal invincibles and United. No one gave a damn about money then, and no one gave a damn about the fact that whoever came in would be working with Rick Parry.

 

We forget that Houllier worked under another set of tits and also had to compete with a smaller transfer budget.

 

Forget who we might have to replace him, once more look at Houllier, he had to go, had Benitez failed miserably in the first few years, would the decision to sack Houllier been wrong? No of course not, we just need to get the replacement spot on.

[Original202]

I wouldn't say we were competing with them. In 2004 we finished 30 points behind Arsenal, 19 behind Chelsea and 15 behind the Mancs. We finished with just 27 points more than bottom club Wolves.

 

Relatively though the league has improved as a whole since then, and I don't think we're much better off than we were 5 years back. The spine of our team then was good with the fringe players letting us down, just like now.

 

The strange thing is, in Houllier's final season we had a nightmare with injuries. Carragher and Baros broke their legs, Biscan was forced to play at centre back because Henchoz was struggling, Owen was in and out with his various muscle injuries, and almost every one else in the squad had spells out of the team, we had to loan in Paul Jones at one point as both Kirkland and Dudek were injured. If it weren't for Gerrard, we would have been rooted in mid table that season.

 

But Houllier couldn't use the injuries as an excuse because he'd had 5 years to build a squad by that point and it wasn't good enough. Just as Benitez can't now.

[old skool tom]

i agree totally with the OP.i was always paranoid and defended the club/city no matter what but when i turned about 27 i realised that the great strengh we possessed (take no shit and be completely loyal to club and the city) is also our greatest weeknes.since then ive been much more open to stop thinking the worlds against us and look at the bigger picture.

 

were like germany many decades ago under the Nazis lol

 

the people of germany were fed up of being skint and living in poverty.so when hitler took over and made them both more wealthy and self important,they all stuck behind him despite many realising that it was fucking insane.if only those people had the foresight and courage to do something about it earlier before it got more out of hand?

[zigackly]

were like germany many decades ago under the Nazis lol

 

the people of germany were fed up of being skint and living in poverty.so when hitler took over and made them both more wealthy and self important,they all stuck behind him despite many realising that it was fucking insane.if only those people had the foresight and courage to do something about it earlier before it got more out of hand?

 

Completely ridiculous comparison. Negged.

[Menc]

were like germany many decades ago under the Nazis lol

 

the people of germany were fed up of being skint and living in poverty.so when hitler took over and made them both more wealthy and self important,they all stuck behind him despite many realising that it was fucking insane.if only those people had the foresight and courage to do something about it earlier before it got more out of hand?

 

:|

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

i agree totally with the OP.i was always paranoid and defended the club/city no matter what but when i turned about 27 i realised that the great strengh we possessed (take no shit and be completely loyal to club and the city) is also our greatest weeknes.since then ive been much more open to stop thinking the worlds against us and look at the bigger picture.

 

were like germany many decades ago under the Nazis lol

 

the people of germany were fed up of being skint and living in poverty.so when hitler took over and made them both more wealthy and self important,they all stuck behind him despite many realising that it was fucking insane.if only those people had the foresight and courage to do something about it earlier before it got more out of hand?

 

[old skool tom]

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[Iantn]

Enjoyed that, cos even the points I disagreed with you can tell passion for the club.

 

I don't agree on the similarites with Houllier though an I think it's a bit of a cop-out to say it is. The treble winning squad we had was over the next few years ripped apart with average players. As much as many of my best days watching us happened under him it was the right time to move on.

 

Rafa's first team now is probably better than at any point during his reign. We are yet to see exactly what this current side is capable of.

 

Expectations after last season were massive but given we couldn't add that one extra quality attacking player we needed, plus the extended time in Aquilani getting into the side it has fucked us. We still shouldn't be as bad as we have been at times, but we shouldn't either be better off, yet.

 

Interesting 6 months ahead for us all!!

[Delmar]

Gerard Houllier, the man who once lectured in Liverpool and who many perceived at the time to be the 'epitome' of the Liverpool Way. A Man who gave LFC it's honour back, but was part of a period which saw most of it taken back....

 

And so on, and so on. I would simply like to quote you in the Tomkins thread:

 

"Make it stop" and "I find my conscience screaming throughout all of his articles in a Tony Soprano sort of fashion."

 

I find it applies rather well to your effort. Thank you for it, anyway.

[Vulmea]

Gerard Houllier, the man who once lectured in Liverpool and who many perceived at the time to be the 'epitome' of the Liverpool Way.

 

Even when shit hit the fan with the likes of Houllier and Roy Evans a large proportion of our fans where faithful to the end, however at what cost?

 

 

This season has seen us in one of the worst runs since the 'Darkest days of Houllier'. We play awful football, our team is performing worse than it should be, and all after one of the most successful campaigns since we last won the league.

 

 

I want to be proven wrong, but I feel as If I've been down this muddy, dark road before. Big wins against Everton and United pale into insignificance when compared to losses v Villa and Fiorentina.

 

5 Years down the line, this isn't good enough

 

/QUOTE]

 

Too much crystal ball gazing and rewriting of history for me.

 

Houllier the epitome of the Liverpool Way? when? He had ties with Liverpool, he had love for the club but The Liverpool way? i dont think so, not ever.

 

When did the shit hit the fan with Roy Evans? he had a decent team playing decent football with young kids that lacked a winning mentality but i dont think the shit ever hit the fan with the bloke - he was and is well respected.

 

We play awful football - do we ? we won 6 -1 and 4 - 0 we've beaten united and everton this season - we look like we completely lack confidence but it hasn't stopped us scoring goals - we've been without our two sometimes three and four best players - its called a lack of confidence -just 6 months ago we were scoring four past united, real, arsenal and chelsea and averaging more than 3 goals a game at home. Under houllier we generally played 9 men behind the ball and hoped Owen would score. Is it the same really or do you just want it to be? There's no evidence at all that you want to be wrong not from the last 50 threads you've started.

 

Problem is the fans need to help not give up, the crowd are as nervous as the players, you can sense it in the air every game - no cooincidence for me that the united and everton games we, the fans kept believing - against City, lyon and fiorentina you could feel the lack of belief in the crowd.

 

if you were old enough you could draw parallels with Shankly and his first seasons or ferguson and his - its not about heart and head its about looking at what has been achieved, what should have been acheived and seeing if there is any progress and reason for hope - this year we needed to invest just to stay were we where - with spurs and city having more expensive squads than us, arseanl paying greater wages - this indicated that those teams would be substantially stronger, more competitive - instead we cut our debt - debt which shouldn't fucking be there but for the lying bastards in charge - take away the need to pay their fucking bills for the privalege of buying the club and we'd have been investing £60 million+ - we'd be top of the table and there would be no comparison - Houllier did not have that constraint - yes benitez should have handled the players better, the lack of money should have been used to pull them together not to let them feel sorry for themselves - he's been a disapointment there and its just added to the feeling that team spirit is something he struggles with - something Sammy was brought in to develop - however if the primadonnas that make up our team had been kept happy if those financial bollocks hadn't been there Benitez has shown he's well capable of playing good and winning football - the blame rests with the owners in my view and nothing should deflect from those two bastards having to go and being to blame.

 

I like rafa but I'm not blind to his faults but if he goes before them I think it'll be a mistake of massive propotions - how could we achive any stability under those two muppets?

[The Big Step]

Gerard Houllier, the man who once lectured in Liverpool and who many perceived at the time to be the 'epitome' of the Liverpool Way.

 

Even when shit hit the fan with the likes of Houllier and Roy Evans a large proportion of our fans where faithful to the end, however at what cost?

 

 

This season has seen us in one of the worst runs since the 'Darkest days of Houllier'. We play awful football, our team is performing worse than it should be, and all after one of the most successful campaigns since we last won the league.

 

 

I want to be proven wrong, but I feel as If I've been down this muddy, dark road before. Big wins against Everton and United pale into insignificance when compared to losses v Villa and Fiorentina.

 

5 Years down the line, this isn't good enough

 

/QUOTE]

 

Too much crystal ball gazing and rewriting of history for me.

 

Houllier the epitome of the Liverpool Way? when? He had ties with Liverpool, he had love for the club but The Liverpool way? i dont think so, not ever.

 

When did the shit hit the fan with Roy Evans? he had a decent team playing decent football with young kids that lacked a winning mentality but i dont think the shit ever hit the fan with the bloke - he was and is well respected.

 

We play awful football - do we ? we won 6 -1 and 4 - 0 we've beaten united and everton this season - we look like we completely lack confidence but it hasn't stopped us scoring goals - we've been without our two sometimes three and four best players - its called a lack of confidence -just 6 months ago we were scoring four past united, real, arsenal and chelsea and averaging more than 3 goals a game at home. Under houllier we generally played 9 men behind the ball and hoped Owen would score. Is it the same really or do you just want it to be? There's no evidence at all that you want to be wrong not from the last 50 threads you've started.

 

Problem is the fans need to help not give up, the crowd are as nervous as the players, you can sense it in the air every game - no cooincidence for me that the united and everton games we, the fans kept believing - against City, lyon and fiorentina you could feel the lack of belief in the crowd.

 

if you were old enough you could draw parallels with Shankly and his first seasons or ferguson and his - its not about heart and head its about looking at what has been achieved, what should have been acheived and seeing if there is any progress and reason for hope - this year we needed to invest just to stay were we where - with spurs and city having more expensive squads than us, arseanl paying greater wages - this indicated that those teams would be substantially stronger, more competitive - instead we cut our debt - debt which shouldn't fucking be there but for the lying bastards in charge - take away the need to pay their fucking bills for the privalege of buying the club and we'd have been investing £60 million+ - we'd be top of the table and there would be no comparison - Houllier did not have that constraint - yes benitez should have handled the players better, the lack of money should have been used to pull them together not to let them feel sorry for themselves - he's been a disapointment there and its just added to the feeling that team spirit is something he struggles with - something Sammy was brought in to develop - however if the primadonnas that make up our team had been kept happy if those financial bollocks hadn't been there Benitez has shown he's well capable of playing good and winning football - the blame rests with the owners in my view and nothing should deflect from those two bastards having to go and being to blame.

 

I like rafa but I'm not blind to his faults but if he goes before them I think it'll be a mistake of massive propotions - how could we achive any stability under those two muppets?

 

 

whatever anyone's thoughts are on the big picture overall...if you are not even prepared to concede that we have been playing awful football then there really is no talking to you or those that think the way you do, blows my mind...

[Original202]

Even when we win by a big scoreline, the style of football is still pretty awful. It's just so one dimensional and rigid. We very rarely play good, high tempo, fluid passing football.

[JMARKH]

Anyone who was still backing Houllier at the time he was sacked is not a proper fan really more like a moron, I don't think we are at that stage with Rafa yet.