Demystifying "The Qu'ran"

[RSM]

On Now on Channel 4.

 

What does the Qu'ran actually say?

 

Looks like it will be an interesting programme going by the Radio 5 interview i heard last week with the maker Anthony Thomas.

[Rashid]

You may or may not be interested but there is an in dept programme on Islam in the UK on Channel for now 8pm Monday.

 

Might make some of the debate on here more informed.

[Rashid]

Sorry mate, I posted the same.

[Section_31]

"Flowers sometimes need the protection of thorns"

 

I like that bit.

[RSM]

"Flowers sometimes need the protection of thorns"

 

I like that bit.

 

Like Momo protecting Xabi.

[Strontium]

I saw most of it. It was very interesting, and disturbing at the same time. Amazing how Islam has become so much more extreme in just a few decades, fuelled by Saudi billions.

 

Seeing footage from Cairo 30 years ago, where no women were veiled, to footage from the same city today, where most women wear this humiliating garment, reminded one of a particularly aggressive form of cancer, consuming secular society. It'll take one hell of a chemo session to clear that up.

 

Interesting too to hear how more Muslims have been killed by other Muslims than by the West. Incredible to think that so much death and misery has been caused over what is essentially a fairy tale.

[Alan Sex]

[YOUTUBE]Z6kaV2E03Cs[/YOUTUBE]

[Rashid]

I think it highlighted a few things.

 

1. Islam has been hijacked by Terrorists

2. Islam has been wronged just as much as it has wronged - Palestine is key in this even the majority of Christians are voting for Hamas!

3. The "west" has put it's nose on too many occasions

4. Shi-ah Muslims are a bit psychotic and couldn't more different from the Su-nni's if they tried.

5. Not all Muslims are the same, in fact it's the loud minority that fuck it up for all of us.

6. On the issue of Egyptian women wearing head gear - that's the same all around. In my mums ers nobody wore it, but now loads of sub-continent young women do so - it is because people are more "religious" or "do their bit".... it's their choice mainly and not really as much a "degrading" issue as many people would like to think.

[Rashid]

I have to say that I do agree with some of SD's points on this... but the more you watch "measured" programmes like this the more we will all understand eachother.

[Kobayashi Maru]

I think it highlighted a few things.

 

1. Islam has been hijacked by Terrorists

2. Islam has been wronged just as much as it has wronged - Palestine is key in this even the majority of Christians are voting for Hamas!

3. The "west" has put it's nose on too many occasions

4. Shi-ah Muslims are a bit psychotic and couldn't more different from the Su-nni's if they tried.

5. Not all Muslims are the same, in fact it's the loud minority that fuck it up for all of us.

6. On the issue of Egyptian women wearing head gear - that's the same all around. In my mums ers nobody wore it, but now loads of sub-continent young women do so - it is because people are more "religious" or "do their bit".... it's their choice mainly and not really as much a "degrading" issue as many people would like to think.

 

Pretty much agree with all of that Rashid, apart from point 4. Its a sad indictment that the Shi-ah faith has also been hijacked just like Su-nni's in many parts of the world. In many ways, Al Queda and most of its splinters is more based around the Su-nni faith, so calling Shi-ah's psychotic is a bit strong in generalising. Every group has its vocal nutters, though seems to be more prominent amongst the so called conservative orders like the Wahabi's, Kharijites's, Su-nni's and Shi-ah's. Some of the sects within Islam which have been discriminated against and not accepted in many parts of the islamic world are some of the most peaceful of any religion...like the ahmidiyyas, Sufi's, Baha'is and Alawites.

[Rashid]

like the ahmidiyyas, Sufi's, Baha'is and Alawites.

 

That's because they do things that the Quran says not to, e.g. Sing when they pray! I don't think it has anything to do with anything else.

 

With regard to the Shi-ah psychotic thing, how many religions do you know that cut themselves with a blade as a form of worship? They also say Imam Ali is the last prophet when in none of the holy books was Imam Ali ever mentioned as a prophet.

 

The thing is Islam preaches live and let live unless it is attacked and it's this "attacked" thing that the terrorists hold onto. Interesting reading the Hamas Imam admitting that Suicide is Forbidden.

[Elmyn Noos]

Damn it. I heard the radio interview with Anthony Thomas and wanted to see this programme. Does anyone know if it is going to be repeated?

[Dirk]

Damn it. I heard the radio interview with Anthony Thomas and wanted to see this programme. Does anyone know if it is going to be repeated?

 

4oD - Channel 4's TV and Film on Demand service

[mattyq]

I used to share a flat with a very strict Muslim chap of the sunni persuasion.

He was a really nice bloke but when the subject of shia muslims came up he'd go nuts saying they all should be wiped out etc

It'd be like me saying all proddies should be wiped out...hmm, maybe not such a bad idea

[Fink]

I liked the whirling dervishes

[Elmyn Noos]

4oD - Channel 4's TV and Film on Demand service

 

Cheers Dirk. I'll get on that tonight.

[Catch22]

Was an excellent program I thought. Thanks to RSM/Rashid for recommending it.

 

Comparing the footage of Cairo of 30 years ago with today was 1 of the saddest things i have seen on TV for a long time.

 

As they said whatever the truth behind the religion (& I am an atheist) for centuries the social/political aspect of Islam was far more associated with progress/science/tolerance than the the 'Christian West'.

 

To see that hi-jacked now is very depressing. The cure has to come from within though, led by people such as the Egyptian human rights worker they featured.

[Kopite]

Was an excellent program I thought. Thanks to RSM/Rashid for recommending it.

 

Comparing the footage of Cairo of 30 years ago with today was 1 of the saddest things i have seen on TV for a long time.

 

As they said whatever the truth behind the religion (& I am an atheist) for centuries the social/political aspect of Islam was far more associated with progress/science/tolerance than the the 'Christian West'.

 

To see that hi-jacked now is very depressing. The cure has to come from within though, led by people such as the Egyptian human rights worker they featured.

 

A friend of mine made a similar point but about cricket.

 

He's a huge cricket fan and told me that in his opinion the Pakistani cricketers have become more "extreme" looking (more of the cricketers now have long beards) since 9/11. That's his opinion.

[Dirk]

Some say that people adhere to the more strict ideologies of some sects out of choice. I think that's not strictly true, take Afghanistan, as soon as The Taliban were fucked off out of power, people began to shave their beards and some women stopped wearing veils. A large number adhere to these principles out of fear of being shamed and, in extreme case, retribution. Lets not kid ourselves here. I don't think Islam is a bad religion, I just think the more extreme element has it by the balls and people are following out of fear.

[Rashid]

It is not the newly religious guys with beards or the women who wear head scarfs you need to worry about. It is the lunatics without beards, the scientists, the doctors and the young thugs on the streets who are radicalised by watching Muslim sufferings around the world.

 

The biggest obstacle to peace though is GREED from all parties but mostly the "west" and it's "allies"....

 

People becoming more religious is the least of the worries as pure Islam is really peacefull.

[Rashid]

Some say that people adhere to the more strict ideologies of some sects out of choice. I think that's not strictly true, take Afghanistan, as soon as The Taliban were fucked off out of power, people began to shave their beards and some women stopped wearing veils. A large number adhere to these principles out of fear of being shamed and, in extreme case, retribution. Lets not kid ourselves here. I don't think Islam is a bad religion, I just think the more extreme element has it by the balls and people are following out of fear.

 

That's what you saw in TV mate. Afghanistani people before, during and after the Taleban is the strictest Islamic state in the world after Saudi.

 

People choose how they want to live, it is rare for people do so out of pressure - although it makes good TV.

[Dirk]

It is not the newly religious guys with beards or the women who wear head scarfs you need to worry about. It is the lunatics without beards, the scientists, the doctors and the young thugs on the streets who are radicalised by watching Muslim sufferings around the world.

 

The biggest obstacle to peace though is GREED from all parties but mostly the "west" and it's "allies"....

 

People becoming more religious is the least of the worries as pure Islam is really peacefull.

 

Of course but the increased leaning towards beards and head scarf wearing is partly a symtpom of the lunatics that are pressuring people into adopting these principles. I used to work with a lad called Sam, he was a Muslim, he used to hang around with us outside of work. I used to talk to him about his faith and he would be very open about, he said he only went to the mosque because his parents would be shamed from the community if he didn't go, he used to get absolutely bladdered, smoke dope and date white non-muslim women.

[Rashid]

That doesn't make Sam "one of us" or a "good bloke" because he has rebelled.

 

The trend is for people to follow the religion more these days due to the information available on the internet and other methods, and also due in part to the excess killings there are of Muslims around the world these days by the "West" and their "allies". I read Namaz (prayer) 5 times a day and if you met you wouldn';t be able to tell the difference between me and you in how we live our lives... wearing a cap and praying doesn't make anyone more radicalised, in fact the opposite is true.

 

Terrorists are terrorists whether they pray or not, people becoming more religious doesn't mean they have been pressured into it at all though.

[Dirk]

That doesn't make Sam "one of us" or a "good bloke" because he has rebelled.

 

The trend is for people to follow the religion more these days due to the information available on the internet and other methods, and also due in part to the excess killings there are of Muslims around the world these days by the "West" and their "allies". I read Namaz (prayer) 5 times a day and if you met you wouldn';t be able to tell the difference between me and you in how we live our lives... wearing a cap and praying doesn't make anyone more radicalised, in fact the opposite is true.

 

Terrorists are terrorists whether they pray or not, people becoming more religious doesn't mean they have been pressured into it at all though.

 

So you don't think the fear of being executed prevents people from speaking out against the treatment of homosexuals in Iran? Of course people are going to be scared in extremist countries, that's what happens in extremist states, people live in fear. I don't think people who pray are radical Rash, I don't think people that follow Islam, in general, are radical but I do believe that some major players in the Muslim world are fanatical lunatics that use the religion, through means of fear and persecution, to maintain a position of power. I'm not blaming your religion, I'm blaming the fanatics, they exist and they aren't just disaffected young men either, some of them are the leaders of countries. The liberal muslim voice gets squashed by these people.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Dirk
Clarifying point.

[Rashid]

So you don't think the fear of being executed prevents people from speaking out against the treatment of homosexuals in Iran? Of course people are going to be scared in extremist countries, that's what happens in extremist states, people live in fear. I don't think people who pray are radical Rash, I don't think people that follow Islam, in general, are radical but I do believe that some major players in the Muslim world are fanatical lunatics that use the religion, through means of fear and persecution, to maintain a position of power. I'm not blaming your religion, I'm blaming the fanatics, they exist and they aren't just disaffected young men either, some of them are the leaders of countries. The liberal muslim voice gets squashed by these people.

 

The Quran is strict on homosexual behaviour and I very much doubt that the majority don't hold the same views on it as their leaders. In fact I don't know a single Muslim who doesn't condemn it.

 

I agree with the rest of your post though, the programme yesterday shows loads of examples of how radicals have twisted the words of the Qu'ran. The Liberall Muslim is also "Liberal" is he doesn't want a "voice" he just wants to live his life in peace hence his voice is never heard.