Are we on the verge of a re-build?

[DalyanPete]

On 01/06/2022 at 17:07, Anubis said:

 

Only the forum's beautiful people get onto the podcast.

 

This thread is for the plebs, like me.

Me too

[Barrington Womble]

10 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

That’s really unfair to Milner.

 

Sometimes when he clattered into people, he also won the ball.

I don't remember that too often! 

[VladimirIlyich]

We are in a constant cycle of evolution under Klopp and it's brilliant. We won a trophy with a rookie keeper,bought a new centre half,two new forwards in two seasons and are constantly rotating our young midfielders. We have left back cover too. All is grand.

[Paul]

24 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

He wouldn't want to destroy his legacy here either and as a result, I don't think he would go to a good English team. And I would guess the top European clubs wouldn't see him as a big enough name. So with all that, his choices away from here would be very much down. The only way I see him leaving is if he is only getting the sort of minutes milner got this year. I know milner finished the season with a reasonable amount of minutes, but he didn't play a great deal through the season, his performances often a late sub to come on and make a few fouls. 

Think I read Milner had his most appearances for Liverpool this season. Might not be minutes though 

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, Paul said:

Think I read Milner had his most appearances for Liverpool this season. Might not be minutes though 

I read he had his fewest minutes and was 19th or 20th in the list of players. He definitely came off the bench a lot for a few minutes. It's hard to believe it was more appearances than the year he played left back. Maybe we weren't in Europe that year. And of course he had good domestic cup runs this season and I imagine played every game outside of finals and maybe semi. 

[an tha]

21 minutes ago, Paul said:

Think I read Milner had his most appearances for Liverpool this season. Might not be minutes though 

He played in 39 games across all competitions - totalling 1,371 mins.

 

It wasn't his most amount of apperances - he had previously played:

 

45 - 3,872

40 - 3,437

47 - 2,787

45 - 2,836

37 - 1,708

36 - 1,752

 

For me fact he is still getting as many appearances as he does shows the issues we have in midfield - we are fucking boss, but midfield is IMHO our one area where we really can and should improve our options.

 

We were particularly dodgy in terms of our midfield line ups in first half of season, at one stage it started to look a bit like the centre half situation from previous season, thankfully it never got that bad but it was a revolving door, barely put out same 3 two weeks/games running and our 'best 3' was seen all to rarely... no coincidence that when things settled more in second half of season and our 'best 3' were seen more results improved.

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

I'm not sure if it's a 'rebuild' per se, but I think we are looking at some substantial changes to our front-line over the next season or two. Actually, we've been transitioning from the Bobby, Salah, Mane front three for a while with Jota and Diaz coming in, and if Mane and then Salah leave, then I think we will clearly bring in some good players to replace them. I also think there's clear need in midfield. Perhaps not a rebuild, as we will keep so many important players, but certainly a partial overhaul. 

[Barrington Womble]

22 minutes ago, an tha said:

He played in 39 games across all competitions - totalling 1,371 mins.

 

It wasn't his most amount of apperances - he had previously played:

 

45 - 3,872

40 - 3,437

47 - 2,787

45 - 2,836

37 - 1,708

36 - 1,752

 

For me fact he is still getting as many appearances as he does shows the issues we have in midfield - we are fucking boss, but midfield is IMHO our one area where we really can and should improve our options.

 

We were particularly dodgy in terms of our midfield line ups in first half of season, at one stage it started to look a bit like the centre half situation from previous season, thankfully it never got that bad but it was a revolving door, barely put out same 3 two weeks/games running and our 'best 3' was seen all to rarely... no coincidence that when things settled more in second half of season and our 'best 3' were seen more results improved.

 

 

I think milner must know himself though - not just by the minutes klopp is giving him, but he must know he's quite a bit off the pace with his mobility. I think his ability to play across the pitch is testiment to both his footballing intelligence and his ability in understanding his own limitations. With that in mind, I'm sure he realises he's struggling a little at times now, in fact some times more than a little. I wouldn't be shocked to see him retire - I think most footballers want to get out before they start making a tit of themselves. 

[an tha]

I do think this is a time for transition, not a wholesale one but a significant one.

 

Our future does not lie in the hands of Salah, Firmino and Mane as it did say two years ago - for me we have had their best/peak years....

 

Players like Milner, Origi and Oxlade Chamberlain are moving towards the exit door or at least the margins.

 

Bringing in Diaz early and Carvalho is just the start of it and Klopp will want to move people up the order and have a team that will see out the next four years he is here but also be fit to handover. 

 

We do in my view need to start this summer though - not wait and end up needing or tying to do too much in too short a space of time....a piece by piece proactive refresh rather than a 'oh shit this side has all grown old together/fallen apart through leavers' situation.

 

IMHO we should be looking at next 4 transfer windows to do the work needed....Midfield is going to need work - The 3 key men in it are already 32, 31 and other will be 29 early next season respectively.....Oxlade is done, Milner is 36....Question marks over Keita remain and the kids are still unproven/developing - so for me there is work to do there over those next 4 windows to succession plan and to create the depth we need.

 

 

[an tha]

1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think milner must know himself though - not just by the minutes klopp is giving him, but he must know he's quite a bit off the pace with his mobility. I think his ability to play across the pitch is testiment to both his footballing intelligence and his ability in understanding his own limitations. With that in mind, I'm sure he realises he's struggling a little at times now, in fact some times more than a little. I wouldn't be shocked to see him retire - I think most footballers want to get out before they start making a tit of themselves. 

As most of us do I love him, but for me he simply should not be appearing for us anymore - not with where we are and where we want to be.

 

Superb player, great attitude, tons of experience - superb pro....but he is IMHO done at the very top level we now are at and want to stay at.

[MOGLET]

As long as Keita isnt part of the rebuild I will be happy.

[an tha]

I really do think we are currently a bit short in midfield mid to long term....Other than Fabinho (who will be 31 then though) I don't know who will be in the starting midfield in 2 seasons time. Henderson and Thiago will inevitably not be able to start all the time by then at 34 and 33 respectively and of course Thiago's fitness is a worry anyway - we probably have to accept even now that he will miss a third or more of our games - issue is how we cover that.

 

Whether Jones kicks on and steps up or Keita (if he stays) becomes the player we hoped are big unknowns.....does not feel we have the future there yet....or really the required depth/quality in reserve now.

[Barrington Womble]

24 minutes ago, an tha said:

I do think this is a time for transition, not a wholesale one but a significant one.

 

Our future does not lie in the hands of Salah, Firmino and Mane as it did say two years ago - for me we have had their best/peak years....

 

Players like Milner, Origi and Oxlade Chamberlain are moving towards the exit door or at least the margins.

 

Bringing in Diaz early and Carvalho is just the start of it and Klopp will want to move people up the order and have a team that will see out the next four years he is here but also be fit to handover. 

 

We do in my view need to start this summer though - not wait and end up needing or tying to do too much in too short a space of time....a piece by piece proactive refresh rather than a 'oh shit this side has all grown old together/fallen apart through leavers' situation.

 

IMHO we should be looking at next 4 transfer windows to do the work needed....Midfield is going to need work - The 3 key men in it are already 32, 31 and other will be 29 early next season respectively.....Oxlade is done, Milner is 36....Question marks over Keita remain and the kids are still unproven/developing - so for me there is work to do there over those next 4 windows to succession plan and to create the depth we need.

 

 

There's no doubt the midfield needs some work - but I am still hopeful Jones can be a part of that. I personally feel he's at a point now where he needs a run of games, or at least get the opportunity konate did last season. Maybe he would have got it too last season, but he was injured at just the wrong time. I did hear some stories (dunno if they're right, but I've no reason to doubt them) the club were disappointed in the shape he was in when he returned after the summer break last year, which is why he seemed a bit down the pecking order in August despite some senior players missing or had little recovery time due to internationals. Hopefully he can put that right. He certainly has some talent, but he absolutely has to start showing it more often. 

 

Midfield is the area klopp has always been most willing to rotate, so if we can remove some dead wood, bring someone in in their early to mid 20s and work on getting more from Jones and Elliot, I think that would be the 1st step on the road to reshaping the midfield. If keita goes, I'd bring in 2 (assuming milner and Chamberlain are off). 

[TheBitch]

On 01/06/2022 at 16:14, Paul said:

Ha, ha, ha!!! “Beautiful people”!!! Have you met Monty?

Once referred to as a strategically shaven chimp*
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*he may not have been referred to as a strategically shaven chimp

[an tha]

17 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

There's no doubt the midfield needs some work - but I am still hopeful Jones can be a part of that. I personally feel he's at a point now where he needs a run of games, or at least get the opportunity konate did last season. Maybe he would have got it too last season, but he was injured at just the wrong time. I did hear some stories (dunno if they're right, but I've no reason to doubt them) the club were disappointed in the shape he was in when he returned after the summer break last year, which is why he seemed a bit down the pecking order in August despite some senior players missing or had little recovery time due to internationals. Hopefully he can put that right. He certainly has some talent, but he absolutely has to start showing it more often. 

 

Midfield is the area klopp has always been most willing to rotate, so if we can remove some dead wood, bring someone in in their early to mid 20s and work on getting more from Jones and Elliot, I think that would be the 1st step on the road to reshaping the midfield. If keita goes, I'd bring in 2 (assuming milner and Chamberlain are off). 

Don't disagree too much but i have my doubts over Jones....talent is there without doubt, i wonder if attitude and frankly the intelligence is there though.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, an tha said:

Don't disagree too much but i have my doubts over Jones....talent is there without doubt, i wonder if attitude and frankly the intelligence is there though.

These are things we only find out in time. I actually don't think his contribution so far has been terrifically different to Henderson's early years here. And Henderson had 70 matches at Sunderland behind him and was only the same age as Curtis is now when he arrived. So I don't want to write him off just yet. But it does feel this probably needs to be a big season for him. 

[aws]

13 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

These are things we only find out in time. I actually don't think his contribution so far has been terrifically different to Henderson's early years here. And Henderson had 70 matches at Sunderland behind him and was only the same age as Curtis is now when he arrived. So I don't want to write him off just yet. But it does feel this probably needs to be a big season for him. 

Ideally we'd loan him out to a Prem club where he'd get regular game time but we don't have the numbers.  

[an tha]

30 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

These are things we only find out in time. I actually don't think his contribution so far has been terrifically different to Henderson's early years here. And Henderson had 70 matches at Sunderland behind him and was only the same age as Curtis is now when he arrived. So I don't want to write him off just yet. But it does feel this probably needs to be a big season for him. 

I never got impression Hendo had a bit of an attitude problem/thought he was better than he was.

 

I do with Jones though.

 

Time will tell of course - no question he has talent and when he is on it he looks good - think it was Porto away where he ran the show and looked really good....but as i say (maybe i am being unfair) i just have this nagging doubt about his head...

[Paul]

3 hours ago, an tha said:

He played in 39 games across all competitions - totalling 1,371 mins.

 

It wasn't his most amount of apperances - he had previously played:

 

45 - 3,872

40 - 3,437

47 - 2,787

45 - 2,836

37 - 1,708

36 - 1,752

 

For me fact he is still getting as many appearances as he does shows the issues we have in midfield - we are fucking boss, but midfield is IMHO our one area where we really can and should improve our options.

 

We were particularly dodgy in terms of our midfield line ups in first half of season, at one stage it started to look a bit like the centre half situation from previous season, thankfully it never got that bad but it was a revolving door, barely put out same 3 two weeks/games running and our 'best 3' was seen all to rarely... no coincidence that when things settled more in second half of season and our 'best 3' were seen more results improved.

 

 

Apologies. It was Hendo who had his most appearances. I must’ve conflated the two as they’re both so boss. 

[Paul]

Jones has a very high ceiling in my view and is in the very best place to realise his potential. 

[Barrington Womble]

10 minutes ago, aws said:

Ideally we'd loan him out to a Prem club where he'd get regular game time but we don't have the numbers.  

No, we definitely don't. I think up to now klopp has handled him well, it's just this season where really you'd have hoped for more. But that eye injury followed by covid came at a bad time for his development this season. But he's still played more than 60 times in the last 2 seasons, so he is getting gsme time. I just think he needs to start more and that to be quite regular. The konate comparison I made, is I'd like to see him nail down 1 start per week when we're playing 2 games a week and anything else after that is a bonus. 

[Barrington Womble]

37 minutes ago, an tha said:

I never got impression Hendo had a bit of an attitude problem/thought he was better than he was.

 

I do with Jones though.

 

Time will tell of course - no question he has talent and when he is on it he looks good - think it was Porto away where he ran the show and looked really good....but as i say (maybe i am being unfair) i just have this nagging doubt about his head...

I meant in terms of contribution on the pitch they are similar. 

 

However, I know for sure he suffered with confidence and the step to Liverpool blew him away. Everyone at the club was worried about him mentally through that 1st year he was here - Kenny played him more than he wanted but saw the short term sacrifice important to helping him believe he belonged. Kenny had a lot of faith in him and luckily Henderson has been able to pay the club back, even if it didn't help Kenny a great deal. 

[Kevin D]

5 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't remember that too often! 

 

He bloody nailed Kante at Wembley.

[3 Stacks]

Jones is talented but you can tell the mental side is lacking. He makes bad decisions with the ball and takes too many touches. 

 

Conversely, I think Elliott is a really smart player. He just "gets it". 

 

We'll see if Carvalho plays more midfield or further forward, but he looks like a Coutinho profile to me. Not someone who should play deeper.

 

The midfield is in a decent spot. Good mix of some promising youth and experience. It's one good 23-25 year old from being in a great spot. That's not a rebuild. 

[Reckoner]

So in summary

1) A team who reached 92 points whilst getting to the champions league final should write off the following year for an urgent rebuild.

2) When you’re subbed off there’s a fine line between looking too pissed off, wanting a transfer and destroying the squads morale or not pissed off enough and clearly just being happy to collect his wages, and Hendo plays it just right.