Who exactly has Rafa 'lost'

[ratcatcher]

Its been said on here many a time that Benitez is alof (sp?) from his players. Perhaps he doesnt listen to things they have or want to say to him about tactics etc? But, if someone keeps rebuffing you when you can see something's going wrong then, perhaps you shouldnt expect ringing endorsements from them when the shit does hit the fan.

 

All those who say Gerrard and Carragher should shut up or feck off, why? Why should they 'run away' as those same people would accuse them off?

 

If Gerrard and or Carragher were coming out every week with comments about how the team should play, what tactics, who should be in the team every week etc, they may have a point. But they havent so they dont.

 

For clowns to be saying they'd invite bids for Gerrard if we got a decent right winger, what planet are they on? yeah, let's ship out one of the best midfielder's in the world, if not the best, just to satisfy you. Unbelievable.

[sir roger]

They are looking after the club, I wish people could see that. Im not denying rafa has the clubs best interests at heart but its simply not working.

 

I know what you are saying WR , and usually I am not in favour of players getting too involved in the boardroom affairs , but this situation is a very strange one & they have in effect left the only person of the hierarchy who can genuinely regarded as having the club's best interests 'out to dry ' & played into the hands of the biggest threat to LFC , probably in its history.

 

Disinterested foreign players I could understand , but the 2 main local lads should be taking in the larger picture in my view whether they have

( justifiable ) concerns about Rafa's leadership on the pitch.

[RedKnight]

Most of the senior squad who have been here over two years.

[Kevin D]

Don't agree with Gerrard. In saying that I'm in no doubt that Carragher is no longer playing for Rafa and I've seen him not give 100% plenty of times this season. Unacceptable.

[RedKnight]

Don't agree about Gerrard? Then you'd be wrong.

[zigackly]

Benitez is the only manager who has ever shown faith in picking Carragher regularly at centre-back, which has allowed him to become so highly regarded as a result, so it would be more than a little ironic if he has now lost faith in the manager.

[WaltonRed]

Your all wrong. I'd love to see any of us go out there and give it 100% when you are being asked to do things which you know wont pay dividends or you wont play next week even if you scored 10

[Moschops II]

You'd think the problem here would be pretty self-explanatory - players, no matter how senior, shouldn't have the amount of influence within the club as a whole that a couple of ours are widely assumed to have. Look at the Mancs under Ferguson - though it pains me to give him credit for anything, that's how the hierarchy at a football club should work. And it doesn't with ours.

[Kevin D]

Your all wrong. I'd love to see any of us go out there and give it 100% when you are being asked to do things which you know wont pay dividends or you wont play next week even if you scored 10

 

Are you joking?

[Moschops II]

Your all wrong. I'd love to see any of us go out there and give it 100% when you are being asked to do things which you know wont pay dividends or you wont play next week even if you scored 10

 

I'd love any of us who work for a living to give less than 100% and then explain to our bosses or clients that the reason why is we've lost faith in their abilities.

 

Still, they're footballers, aren't they? Can't expect them to have to abide by the same basic standards as every other fucker in the country.

[zigackly]

Your all wrong. I'd love to see any of us go out there and give it 100% when you are being asked to do things which you know wont pay dividends or you wont play next week even if you scored 10

 

That doesn't really apply to Gerrard and Carragher who are picked far more often than not, and as often as the equivalent players at other top clubs in the division. It's only the fringe players who are not consistently picked in the vast majority of games, our spine is quite settled and this bears comparison with our rivals.

[Kevin D]

Don't agree about Gerrard? Then you'd be wrong.

 

It can look way but Gerrard simply does not know how to give less than 100% for Liverpool. He may question it and look uncomfortable but he'd do as the manager tells him because he understands what it means to be captain of Liverpool.

[ratcatcher]

I'd love any of us who work for a living to give less than 100% and then explain to our bosses or clients that the reason why is we've lost faith in their abilities.

 

Still, they're footballers, aren't they? Can't expect them to have to abide by the same basic standards as every other fucker in the country.

 

I'd defy anyone to prove I wasnt giving 100% when I wasnt because I'd make it look like I was giving 100%.

 

All these experts who 'know' such and such a player isnt giving 100%, especially a player such as carragher? Dont make me laugh.

[Kevin D]

:santa:

I'd defy anyone to prove I wasnt giving 100% when I wasnt because I'd make it look like I was giving 100%.

 

All these experts who 'know' such and such a player isnt giving 100%, especially a player such as carragher? Dont make me laugh.

 

 

YouTube - Liverpool v Barnsley Brian howard last minute fa cup

 

Thats 100%? Turning away from the ball.

[Mr Moustache]

JC works with him everyday, he's been loyal and totally committed and If he has indeed loast faith I doubt he did it willy nilly.

 

Spot on. If theres anybody who is LFC through and through its Carra. I know this virtually first hand and I also know he wouldnt deliberately or openly have an agenda against the manager. He has respect for his manager and also knows his place. That said neither him or Stevie arent afraid to discuss things with the boss that perhaps other players wouldnt. Rafa isn't a stupid man, he wouldn't deliberately alienate his senior players regardless of whether or not he believes in the 'team' rather than 'individuals'. He has managed in Spain where senior players have a hell of a lot more say than they do over here. Rafa expects this. If J Carra has indeed lost faith in the manager than it is certainly not been a knee jerk decision to anything. I still doubt he has anyway.

 

I lost a lot of respect for Stevie over the Chelsea Summers but anybody who thinks he isnt committed should look at his reaction to any defeat or draw we should have won. His committment to giving his best for LFC should not be questioned. And the suggestion that his nose has been put out of joint by Torres success is clearly of the same mindset as Alec Baldwin in Malice.

 

Whoever thinks Gerrard should ever be sold is clearly not playing with a full deck.

 

Some bell-end on another thread actually referred to Stevie & Carra as "scally muppets". And people wonder why the likes of RTK despair at some of our sc-called support.

[ScouseAndy]

They are looking after the club, I wish people could see that. Im not denying rafa has the clubs best interests at heart but its simply not working.

 

They are players. Their job is to play. Fuck all to do with them who manages the club. Which is how it should be.

 

If they aren't giving it their all they should be out.

 

Not passing opinion on whether or not they are committed as I don't know although as said before the silence speaks volumes.

[ratcatcher]

:santa:

 

 

YouTube - Liverpool v Barnsley Brian howard last minute fa cup

 

Thats 100%? Turning away from the ball.

 

Does that include Alonso's 'effort' to clear the ball or tackle the player? Or is Alonso excluded from such observations?

[Mr Moustache]

:santa:

 

 

YouTube - Liverpool v Barnsley Brian howard last minute fa cup

 

Thats 100%? Turning away from the ball.

 

No, 100% is making last ditch fucking tackles in the European Cup Final when you can barely stand due to cramp.

 

I ask you, I really do. Jesus Christ how did we ever get so clueless?

[Anny Road]

Carra and Gerrard have said fuck all. I have not seen one quote which has them having a dig at Rafa. If they don't agree with his methods, fair enough.

[Libero]

You'd think the problem here would be pretty self-explanatory - players, no matter how senior, shouldn't have the amount of influence within the club as a whole that a couple of ours are widely assumed to have. Look at the Mancs under Ferguson - though it pains me to give him credit for anything, that's how the hierarchy at a football club should work. And it doesn't with ours.

 

Exactly.

 

You would never even hear of anything like this, even as rumour, about Giggs, Neville or Scholes.

 

And that is one of the main reasons for their success.

[zigackly]

Spot on. If theres anybody who is LFC through and through its Carra. I know this virtually first hand and I also know he wouldnt deliberately or openly have an agenda against the manager. He has respect for his manager and also knows his place. That said neither him or Stevie arent afraid to discuss things with the boss that perhaps other players wouldnt. Rafa isn't a stupid man, he wouldn't deliberately alienate his senior players regardless of whether or not he believes in the 'team' rather than 'individuals'. He has managed in Spain where senior players have a hell of a lot more say than they do over here. Rafa expects this. If J Carra has indeed lost faith in the manager than it is certainly not been a knee jerk decision to anything. I still doubt he has anyway.

 

I lost a lot of respect for Stevie over the Chelsea Summers but anybody who thinks he isnt committed should look at his reaction to any defeat or draw we should have won. His committment to giving his best for LFC should not be questioned. And the suggestion that his nose has been put out of joint by Torres success is clearly of the same mindset as Alec Baldwin in Malice.

 

Whoever thinks Gerrard should ever be sold is clearly not playing with a full deck.

 

Some bell-end on another thread actually referred to Stevie & Carra as "scally muppets". And people wonder why the likes of RTK despair at some of our sc-called support.

 

Great post fella, and I hope you are right. Problem is, enough people start to say that the manager has lost the players on forums like this and the idea snowballs and gains a life of it's own, even if it isn't true. I think this idea has mainly come out of Bascombe saying as much a couple of weeks ago, and people assuming that because Carragher has his ear it must be true. I have no idea if the senior players have lost faith in the manager or not, but if they had it would be ironic considering they've had their biggest successes under him and in Carragher's case only got his chance to become a senior player because of the faith the manager placed in him in a position no other manager picked him regularly at for club or country.

 

It's hard to take the lack of heart we seem to be playing with and it's easy to blame it on the manager, but the fact is everything is up in the air with the club at the moment and has been throughout this long run of bad form. People are lashing out at the moment because the whole future of the club seems in doubt and we have fallen out of three competitions in fewer months. I think there are a number of factors we could look at: incompetent owners, debt on the club, manager undermined, injuries, passengers in the squad. It all adds up to a pretty nasty feeling, and I'm sure the players are affected by it much as we are.

 

I'm fairly sure that many of those pushing this idea of the manager having lost the players are using it to further an agenda of their own, but it's an easy idea to push when we are so shite on the pitch, and the players have to take a long look at themselves in this regard as well because they are the ones putting in sub-standard performances, whatever their reasons.

[Hermes]

 

I think there are a number of factors we could look at: incompetent owners, debt on the club, manager undermined, injuries, passengers in the squad. It all adds up to a pretty nasty feeling, and I'm sure the players are affected by it much as we are.

 

 

 

There have been a few posts referring to injuries. Only Agger and Alonso of the usually regular players have had long-term injuries and Alonso is now overlooked anyway in favour of Mascherano.

 

Have we been hit by injuries this season more than the top 3?

[WaltonRed]

They are players. Their job is to play. Fuck all to do with them who manages the club. Which is how it should be.

 

If they aren't giving it their all they should be out.

 

Not passing opinion on whether or not they are committed as I don't know although as said before the silence speaks volumes.

 

I'd love to be that naive.

 

Spot on. If theres anybody who is LFC through and through its Carra. I know this virtually first hand and I also know he wouldnt deliberately or openly have an agenda against the manager. He has respect for his manager and also knows his place. That said neither him or Stevie arent afraid to discuss things with the boss that perhaps other players wouldnt. Rafa isn't a stupid man, he wouldn't deliberately alienate his senior players regardless of whether or not he believes in the 'team' rather than 'individuals'. He has managed in Spain where senior players have a hell of a lot more say than they do over here. Rafa expects this. If J Carra has indeed lost faith in the manager than it is certainly not been a knee jerk decision to anything. I still doubt he has anyway.

 

I lost a lot of respect for Stevie over the Chelsea Summers but anybody who thinks he isnt committed should look at his reaction to any defeat or draw we should have won. His committment to giving his best for LFC should not be questioned. And the suggestion that his nose has been put out of joint by Torres success is clearly of the same mindset as Alec Baldwin in Malice.

 

Whoever thinks Gerrard should ever be sold is clearly not playing with a full deck.

 

Some bell-end on another thread actually referred to Stevie & Carra as "scally muppets". And people wonder why the likes of RTK despair at some of our sc-called support.

 

Agree with that 110%

[zigackly]

There have been a few posts referring to injuries. Only Agger and Alonso of the usually regular players have had long-term injuries and Alonso is now overlooked anyway in favour of Mascherano.

 

Have we been hit by injuries this season more than the top 3?

 

We've had quite a few niggling injuries week to week, especially in the defence. At one point last week we only had three fit defenders in the first team squad for instance. They might not be long term injuries but every time a player gets an injury it means they're not recovering to 100% before they're utilised and it also means the other players get more tired as there's no cover, or that we are forced to field players that are out of form.

 

I wouldn't know if we've had worse problems than the other top clubs or not as I don't follow them week to week. I can't think of as many injuries off the top of my head for the Mancs or Arsenal as we've had over the course fo the season, but I could be wrong. Chelsea have probably been hit as badly as us or worse. One thing I would say is they have better quality squads, so it's not going to hurt them as much in any case.

 

Anyway, it's a throwaway point and the weakest part of my argument so I don't want to dwell on it at any length.

[Paul]

Keep reading that Rafa has 'lost' the team & they are not playing for him , but I wonder if this is a blanket thing or more selective.

 

My opinion on each player

 

Still fully committed;

 

Reina , Arbeloa , Sami , Skertl , Agger ( presumably ) , Benayoun , Masch , Lucas , Pennant , Babel , Kuyt , Torres.

 

Not sure whether it is poor form or loss of faith in Rafa

 

Finnan , Aurelio , Riise , Alonso

 

Shit

 

Itandje , Voronin

 

Want Rafa out

 

Gerrard - never been an easy relationship & despite what was said at the time , I think Goodison was the watershed.

 

Carragher - most surprisingly , as Rafa has lavished praise on him like nobody else over the past 4 years & only blemish on Rafa's side would seem to be the right back kerfuffle the other week. Think the problems are rooted earlier however as he has declined to back Rafa on numerous occasions this season.

To myself who saw him as my ' nearest equivalent on the pitch ' I feel Carra's stock has plummeted. Maybe friendship with Steven has outranked his relationship with Rafa & affection for the club.

 

Crouch - possibly with some justification , but some performances have been awful

 

Kewell - The aussie with the most swollen stomach since Boney ,although he could possibly be in the second band as he has showed little urgency in most of his LFC career

 

In essence , I don't think it is a massive proportion of the team involved & possibly recoverable, but admittedly the main 2 players in the team are involved which raises the level of the problem.

 

I think if Rafa survives he may have to bite the bullet & let Steven leave , as , fantastic as he is , he throws us out tactically & is becoming a bit 'Thierry Shearerish' at the club.

 

Obviously accept that Rafa is more likely to go , but hope he doesn't.

 

I don't think there's anyone at the club who doesn't try to give his all when on the pitch. Losing the players is not about a conscious decision not to play for the manager, in my view; it's more subconscious - they're confused, lacking in confidence and out of form.

 

People always trot out some fatuous shite about "Fucking millionaires shouldn't need motivating to play the game they love". If that was the case, why else do sportsmen go through peaks and troughs of form and confidence? At the highest level, the mental side of the game has a huge impact.

 

The two key jobs a top manager has now are to sign the right players and then to get their heads right so they can give their best on the pitch. Without those two attributes, tactics and systems are about as much use as a chocolate teapot.