Our problems

[coop]

I voted short term but in all fairness i should really have voted long term unless Rafa changes his philosophy.

 

Gerrard, Sissoko, Alonso, Lucas and Mascherano are our main central midfielders but out of them only Gerrard could be classed as an attacking player.

 

Torres, Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch are the main strikers but other then Torres the other three are known for working hard, tracking back into midfield and holding the ball up.

 

Rafa has the team setup not lose a game instead of thinking of winning it.

 

For all his abuse he gets Andy Gray made a vaild point yesterday in that Besiktas had a corner and sent three at most four players into the box yet we had seven players back there.

 

We are obsessed in not conceding a goal that we rarely let the shackles off and take chances.

 

I know people hate posters referring to the other members of the big four but both Man United and Arsenal are both setup to attack team regardless of been home or away. To decide if this tactic works then look at the Premiership winners since it started and see how many times these two teams feature.

 

This is not a 'get rid of Rafa' post as i really rate Rafa and his tactics have proven time and time again to work but i think we would love to see Rafa tell the team to go out and attack the opposition instead of inviting pressure.

 

We all know what positions need strengthening and we all know the positives and negatives of rotation but one thing i will say about changing the players all the time is if Torres is to be rested then Babel should play there, or another striker with pace should be signed.

 

A victory on Sunday will make things look rosy again but like Paul and others have posted the problems started before the International break and will take a total re-think by our management team and the way they approach the game.

[Red Nick]

I voted short term but in all fairness i should really have voted long term unless Rafa changes his philosophy.

 

Gerrard, Sissoko, Alonso, Lucas and Mascherano are our main central midfielders but out of them only Gerrard could be classed as an attacking player.

 

Torres, Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch are the main strikers but other then Torres the other three are known for working hard, tracking back into midfield and holding the ball up.

 

Rafa has the team setup not lose a game instead of thinking of winning it.

 

For all his abuse he gets Andy Gray made a vaild point yesterday in that Besiktas had a corner and sent three at most four players into the box yet we had seven players back there.

 

We are obsessed in not conceding a goal that we rarely let the shackles off and take chances.

 

I know people hate posters referring to the other members of the big four but both Man United and Arsenal are both setup to attack team regardless of been home or away. To decide if this tactic works then look at the Premiership winners since it started and see how many times these two teams feature.

 

This is not a 'get rid of Rafa' post as i really rate Rafa and his tactics have proven time and time again to work but i think we would love to see Rafa tell the team to go out and attack the opposition instead of inviting pressure.

 

We all know what positions need strengthening and we all know the positives and negatives of rotation but one thing i will say about changing the players all the time is if Torres is to be rested then Babel should play there, or another striker with pace should be signed.

 

A victory on Sunday will make things look rosy again but like Paul and others have posted the problems started before the International break and will take a total re-think by our management team and the way they approach the game.

 

When someone like you starts to turn you know there are problems ahead.

 

I am probably the most relaxed of posters on here because I've always felt our first 11 could challenge for the title but take TORRES and Gerrard out of our team and our attack is powder puff.

 

Pako was a huge loss and unfortunately some of us have been proved right about not buying top quality in the summer.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we should have sold Crouch and Sissoko and not bought Babel and Benayoun and with that money bought a quality striker, a quality winger and Milito the defender who could play left back or centre back, I reckon with the 35m that would have come to we could have bought all 3, Quality over quantity its a mistake Houllier made and Rafa seems to be making the same mistake.

 

I think being knocked out of the CL is a huge blessing in disguise as Rafa wont need to rotate his premiership line up and he knows this season he will be judged on where we finish in the league

[Cardie]

When someone like you starts to turn you know there are problems ahead.

 

I am probably the most relaxed of posters on here because I've always felt our first 11 could challenge for the title but take TORRES and Gerrard out of our team and our attack is powder puff.

 

Pako was a huge loss and unfortunately some of us have been proved right about not buying top quality in the summer.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we should have sold Crouch and Sissoko and not bought Babel and Benayoun and with that money bought a quality striker, a quality winger and Milito the defender who could play left back or centre back, I reckon with the 35m that would have come to we could have bought all 3, Quality over quantity its a mistake Houllier made and Rafa seems to be making the same mistake.

 

I think being knocked out of the CL is a huge blessing in disguise as Rafa wont need to rotate his premiership line up and he knows this season he will be judged on where we finish in the league

 

 

Milito went for 12 million and you expect to buy a top winger and a top winger with the remaining money?

 

Fucking dream land.

[BENIRL]

I think being knocked out of the CL is a huge blessing in disguise as Rafa wont need to rotate his premiership line up and he knows this season he will be judged on where we finish in the league

 

Yep.

[MLB]

Some of them are short-term and some are long-term. The cautious tactics, the baffling substitutions, and the overall lack of flexibility and creativity in the team have been long-term symptons of Rafa's reign. The look of can't-be-arsedness and complete lack of coherent football is a more recent, and hopefully more short-term problem.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

I think being knocked out of the CL is a huge blessing in disguise as Rafa wont need to rotate his premiership line up and he knows this season he will be judged on where we finish in the league

 

I have been saying that since the Marsielle game.

[Rashid]

Why do we never send more than 3 players up for a corner? Who do we have 11 players back for a corner? Defensive football sucks.

[Guest TK-421]

Why do we never send more than 3 players up for a corner?

 

That isn't true.

[Section_31]

Why do we never send more than 3 players up for a corner? Who do we have 11 players back for a corner? Defensive football sucks.

 

One thing about the mancs you've got to take your hat of to is they play it by the numbers. One man breaks left, another man breaks right, five men run into the box - a cross comes in, and more often than not, a goal.

 

Wide players, crosses into the box, lots of men running on.

 

Not rocket science good attacking football, and it works too.

[Cardie]

Why do we never send more than 3 players up for a corner? Who do we have 11 players back for a corner? Defensive football sucks.

 

Over the course of a season how many goals are scored from a breakaway by a player on the halfway line?

[Rashid]

One thing about the mancs you've got to take your hat of to is they play it by the numbers. One man breaks left, another man breaks right, five men run into the box - a cross comes in, and more often than not, a goal.

 

Wide players, crosses into the box, lots of men running on.

 

Not rocket science good attacking football, and it works too.

 

The key is the team is packed with fast players so recovery from from the counter is good. They had the best defensive record last season too.

[Rashid]

Over the course of a season how many goals are scored from a breakaway by a player on the halfway line?

 

I've seen many scored on the counter, e.g. a player further up the pitch holds it up for 10 seconds and the whole team attack.... now when Carra hoofs it out we can't do that as noone is waiting for it even to hold it up.

[Cardie]

I've seen many scored on the counter, e.g. a player further up the pitch holds it up for 10 seconds and the whole team attack.... now when Carra hoofs it out we can't do that as noone is waiting for it even to hold it up.

 

How many over the course of a season?

[Jose Jones]

I can't speak for anyone else JJ, but your post presupposes that the discontent is restricted to just this season. Mine began last season when it became clear to me that the squad wasn't anywhere near good enough. Even now, I can't help but be bemused by his decision, following a great league and FA Cup campaign, to marginalise Crouch and tinker with the role that won Gerrard PFA Player of the Year. I think he'd have been better off keeping Cisse and adding one top class attacker (probably a left winger) than making all the (mostly) unsuccessful changes he did make, seemingly in the name of his philosophy of heavy rotation.

 

I agree with you on Crouch, Paul. Even though we don't know what's been going on behind the scenes and at training, I still think Crouch is our second most "dangerous" attacker. And even if he is being a sulky arse, the manager should be able to knock him out of that for the benefit of the team.

 

I also agree on Gerrard's best position - especially now we have Mascherano and Lucas as well for the centre. But I think it had become untenable for Rafa to keep playing him on the right when Gerrard obviously doesn't want to play there. And I would also point out that a lot of people complaining on this thread are the same as those who complain that Gerrard should always be played in the centre. People are well within they're rights to criticise - it seems to me that there are double standards and exaggerations though.

 

You say last season you were convinced that the squad wasn't anywhere near strong enough, and yet we breezed through our Champions League group, beat Barca at the Nou Camp and Chelsea (again) in the semi's on the way to the final. It was different from 2005 where we scraped through on tactics and heart. We were genuinely one of the best couple of teams in the comp. We were poor in the league though, and we have had poor league starts each year under Rafa.

 

This year we have had our best Rafa start in the league - and people are complaining. At the start of the season the Mancs had Rooney and Ronaldo out, they struggled to score goals, lost against Citeh and drew a couple of games. Even when they got both of them back they didn't play well at first and had to scrape a few results. Now they've picked up and are playing well and scoring goals. We've had at various times Gerrard, Carra, and currently Agger, Alonso and Torres out injured. They're not bit part players. Yet when we scrape a win, as in the derby, people complain.

 

We've had people suggesting we should be more like Arsenal - yet what have they done for the last two years? Finished 4th behind us and won fuck all. Then you have the same people questioning Babel after 10 or so games. Do you want to give promising young players the time to bed in (as Wenger has done) and improve or not?

 

As I said people are well within their rights to criticise, but a lot of the criticism seems to be a bit over the top to me. Maybe it's because I'm still a hopeless optimist or summat.

[Malarkey]

Both.

 

Shlong term?

[WaltonRed]

Coop your spot on for me, I just worry he's to stubborn to let the shackles off.

[Malarkey]

When someone like you starts to turn you know there are problems ahead.

 

I am probably the most relaxed of posters on here because I've always felt our first 11 could challenge for the title but take TORRES and Gerrard out of our team and our attack is powder puff.

 

Pako was a huge loss and unfortunately some of us have been proved right about not buying top quality in the summer.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but we should have sold Crouch and Sissoko and not bought Babel and Benayoun and with that money bought a quality striker, a quality winger and Milito the defender who could play left back or centre back, I reckon with the 35m that would have come to we could have bought all 3, Quality over quantity its a mistake Houllier made and Rafa seems to be making the same mistake.

 

I think being knocked out of the CL is a huge blessing in disguise as Rafa wont need to rotate his premiership line up and he knows this season he will be judged on where we finish in the league

 

That signing could of been more effective than just bringing in a Defender. Milito is extremely quick, this could mean we could push and defend further up the pitch meaning we will be attacking more, therefore creating more chances, therefore scoring more goals.

 

Rafa in previous seasons could of signed Milito but he knew that if a Spanish club came in for him Milito would stay in Spain. That's why Rafa didn't pull out all the stops to sign him.

 

This kind of problem is horrible, the only way we can get out of this is to fight, like we did at Everton, we won and we won ugly. I don't care if we get all three points against these cunts on Sunday by Toure or another player scoring an own goal (Apart from Sami), as long as it's a fucking win.

[Paul]

I agree with you on Crouch, Paul. Even though we don't know what's been going on behind the scenes and at training, I still think Crouch is our second most "dangerous" attacker. And even if he is being a sulky arse, the manager should be able to knock him out of that for the benefit of the team.

 

I also agree on Gerrard's best position - especially now we have Mascherano and Lucas as well for the centre. But I think it had become untenable for Rafa to keep playing him on the right when Gerrard obviously doesn't want to play there. And I would also point out that a lot of people complaining on this thread are the same as those who complain that Gerrard should always be played in the centre. People are well within they're rights to criticise - it seems to me that there are double standards and exaggerations though.

 

You say last season you were convinced that the squad wasn't anywhere near strong enough, and yet we breezed through our Champions League group, beat Barca at the Nou Camp and Chelsea (again) in the semi's on the way to the final. It was different from 2005 where we scraped through on tactics and heart. We were genuinely one of the best couple of teams in the comp. We were poor in the league though, and we have had poor league starts each year under Rafa.

 

This year we have had our best Rafa start in the league - and people are complaining. At the start of the season the Mancs had Rooney and Ronaldo out, they struggled to score goals, lost against Citeh and drew a couple of games. Even when they got both of them back they didn't play well at first and had to scrape a few results. Now they've picked up and are playing well and scoring goals. We've had at various times Gerrard, Carra, and currently Agger, Alonso and Torres out injured. They're not bit part players. Yet when we scrape a win, as in the derby, people complain.

 

We've had people suggesting we should be more like Arsenal - yet what have they done for the last two years? Finished 4th behind us and won fuck all. Then you have the same people questioning Babel after 10 or so games. Do you want to give promising young players the time to bed in (as Wenger has done) and improve or not?

 

As I said people are well within their rights to criticise, but a lot of the criticism seems to be a bit over the top to me. Maybe it's because I'm still a hopeless optimist or summat.

 

Mate, I keep on coming back to the issue of goals. Where are they going to come from when El Nino isn't playing? As for the CL run last season, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the squad is shit. What I am saying is that it's nowhere near strong enough to sustain challenges in the two main competitions. That said, if we go out of Europe and subsequently challenge in the league, I'd be pleased as that (along with better attacking football) was my main hope for the season.

[CtrlAltDelete]

For me, the issues are long term: we still do not have enough pace, guile and goals in the side. I think loads of other things exascerbate the issue, but ultimately the players aren't good enough. Too many of them have got nothing better than variable technique. I'm struggling to think of a player in the squad who is shit, but equally I struggle to think of loads of nailed-on quality, too.

 

The only players that I rate without reservation as top class talent are Pepe, Carra, Danny Boy, Xabi, Gerrard and El Nino. It could well be argued that that is the spine of a great team. However, how often do they all play at the same time, and what is the level of quality around them when they do?

 

I believe that Rafa has not been good enough in the transfer market when signing attacking players as he's chosen to go for quantity over quality. That said, when he spends top dollar, he spends it well. For me, the next two windows are crucial and G & T have as great a role to play as the manager. We still need two wingers and another striker - and that's before we address the issues of a better leftback and a third top class centre half.

 

Top post. I agree with all of it!

[Jose Jones]

Mate, I keep on coming back to the issue of goals. Where are they going to come from when El Nino isn't playing? As for the CL run last season, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the squad is shit. What I am saying is that it's nowhere near strong enough to sustain challenges in the two main competitions. That said, if we go out of Europe and subsequently challenge in the league, I'd be pleased as that (along with better attacking football) was my main hope for the season.

 

Yeah, I agree with you a bit on this as well. I think we're (gulp) one top goalscoring winger away (and in a perfect world another genius striker). Gerrard should get a decent share from midfield, Alonso looks like he might pop in with 5-6 or so. But Pennant won't score any, and Babel is still bedding in. So we need one more game-breaker for me.

You do realise though Kuyt has 5 and Voronin 4 and we're a quarter of the way through the season? That would pan out to 20 and 16, not bad for 2nd and 3rd choice strikers... so long as Torres was fit and firing for the whole season that is.

[Brownie]

Why the need to take it to the realm of personal insult? I had you down as better than that. Seems I was wrong.

 

Don't be so touchy Dave, it wasn't anything personal. If it offended you then sorry - just don't agree with you that's all.

[Dirk]

Don't be so touchy Dave, it wasn't anything personal. If it offended you then sorry - just don't agree with you that's all.

 

Fair dues, I didn't want the discussion to descend because I respect you. Now pass me the puke bowl.

[moxter]

Torres, Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch are the main strikers but other then Torres the other three are known for working hard, tracking back into midfield and holding the ball up.

 

 

 

We are obsessed in not conceding a goal that we rarely let the shackles off and take chances.

 

I know people hate posters referring to the other members of the big four but both Man United and Arsenal are both setup to attack team regardless of been home or away. To decide if this tactic works then look at the Premiership winners since it started and see how many times these two teams feature.

 

 

We all know what positions need strengthening and we all know the positives and negatives of rotation but one thing i will say about changing the players all the time is if Torres is to be rested then Babel should play there, or another striker with pace should be signed.

 

I've quoted the key bits for me. The best thing I've seen on Match of the Day this season was an analysis of Torres. Hansen was pointing out that he ALWAYS plays centrally, and always plays forward. No wandering off onto the wings, no chasing back hunting for the ball in midfield. He's also the only striker with genuine pace (Voronin isn't slow and Kuyt can be quicker than you'd expect, but they're not Brian Habana quick). For all our creativity problems, I actually think that we have plenty of quality in midfield and that it's the strikers who are the problem. As someone pointed out yesterday, our defence plays very deep, sucking the midfield back and so the gap between the midfielders and strikers is huge. Personally, with the squad we have, I would play to our strengths midfield) and avoid our weaknesses (forwards) by playing a genuine 4-5-1. Alonso and Mascherano playing as liberos, breaking down attacks and starting new ones for us. Pennant/Benayoun and Babel encouraged to get RIGHT forward and Gerrard thrusting through the centre, with Torres as a true lone centre forward; problem would be with that system is that Torres is the only striker who's got all the attributes to play up front on his own.

 

We do lack pace up front, and Babel is frustratingly right footed. He was constantly cutting inside his man against Besiktas, he doesn't want to get to the corner flag and haul in a cross. As Andy Gray pointed out, he's always looking to get near the box. Someone else pointed out in a post yseterday that Babel should be usnig his pace to break into the box, not break over the halfway line, and I'd agree with all of that. For me, though, priority signing is another striker, someone quick, strong and a finisher (hmmmm, sounds like Torres to me!) rather than a winger. With Benayoun and Pennant, we have the right combination of skill and pace.

[Guest TK-421]

 

We do lack pace up front, and Babel is frustratingly right footed. He was constantly cutting inside his man against Besiktas, he doesn't want to get to the corner flag and haul in a cross.

 

That's one of his strengths and one effort would have broken the net if it was a bit lower (during Wednesday's game). I don't see anything wrong with it especially when Pennant is playing as he tends to stay out wide.

[JustTosh]

That's one of his strengths and one effort would have broken the net if it was a bit lower (during Wednesday's game). I don't see anything wrong with it especially when Pennant is playing as he tends to stay out wide.

 

Nothing wrong in cutting inside when the situation is right. But Wednesday Babel repeatedly had acres and acres of space on the outside left, still he chose the inside route only to be surrounded by half the Turk population. My frustration was aching in my bones. I guess moxter is right. He did it because his left foot is lame.