Keir Starmer

[mattyq]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Sick to the tits of the ubiquitous and persistent lie that JLM is "the Jewish community", rather than just another shower of Apartheid apologists, as bad as the LFI.

https://www.jewishlabour.uk/about

 

To promote the centrality of Israel in Jewish life and its development on the basis of freedom, social justice and the equality for all its citizens

 

Am I missing something here? That mission statement sounds pretty good to me

Should imagine it's emphasising that almost 2 million or 21% of Israeli citizens are Arabs of the Palestinian persuasion

[Bjornebye]

Imagine being hounded as an anti-Semite because you disagree with innocent people being killed. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

17 minutes ago, mattyq said:

To promote the centrality of Israel in Jewish life and its development on the basis of freedom, social justice and the equality for all its citizens

 

Am I missing something here? That mission statement sounds pretty good to me

Should imagine it's emphasising that almost 2 million or 21% of Israeli citizens are Arabs of the Palestinian persuasion

What gets me is the way that every third sentence is about Israel.  It's a "Socialist Zionist" organisation, which is fair enough, I suppose, but they shouldn't be treated as if they are the definitive voice of "the Jewish community" when they don't even claim to speak for non-Zionist Jews.  Their mission statement reads like a good mission statement for a "Friends of Israel" group; they are not focused on representing all Jewish Labour members. 

[Gnasher]

Trolling? This labour purge could end up making night of long knives look like a kiddies food fight. The right wingers have got a taste of socialist blood. 

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

57 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

OK. I'll moderate/clarify what I'm saying about JLM.  It is a Zionist organisation, originally set up to support the state of Israel.

I appreciate you’ve stepped back from saying it was expressly created to support the oppressors, so that’s a step in the right direction. Though, actually this isn’t right either. It wasn’t set up to support the State of Israel. I know this because it predates the State of Israel by almost half a century. The Jewish Labour Movement - affiliated as part of the British Labour Movement since 1920 - was set up to support working Jews. Zionism meant a very different thing 120 years ago and when groups were forming all over the world as part of the Jewish Labour movement, from the Jewish social Democratic Party in Russia and the workers of Zion in Palestine in 1905, I dare say the objective was unlikely to have been fuck over Palestinian kids in 100 years time. 
 

The movement is much bigger than Israel or Corbyn or antisemitism or any of the recent wranglings. And seriously, the Mendoza tweet, which you’d surely have denounced if it was on any other issue, is absolutely disgusting. To liken these people, with varying views, as akin to white supremaciats is grossly insulting. But this is an area where there has been massive bleed over from Corbyn supporters. They seem to be so desperate to defend his honour they’re will to go on the attack. These people aren’t the enemy. They’re actually just people, Labour supporters. Democrat socialists and Social democrats. The way you posted about them this morning indicates to me that you’ve lost all objectivity on this. I don’t know why or where it’s coming from, but I’ve seen you debate on other issues and this is different. It was like Sir Rog, his first reaction to somebody who narrowly escaped prison for abusing female Jewish MP was to attempt to deflect criticism from Corbyn. That isn’t him, and this isn’t you. 
 

I might, as I normally do, come across as a condescending arsehole, but any other subject and this wouldn’t be the line you took. At least I don’t think so. if it was a one off or one person, that’s fine, but it’s happen a lot and it’s groupthink to the max. These same arguments with the same phrases are regurgitated all over the place. 
 

I dunno, I get frustrated and pissy but it’s genuinely sad to see people fall into this. It’s hard to convince people they might be on the wrong track without coming across as the enemy with a patronising lecture. What I’m really trying to do is open some eyes, because the left have fallen off a cliff. I hold the same left wing values as I always have, I still find the actions of the Israeli government as abhorrent as I always have, but I not long feel the same kinship with the left as I once did, not because I’ve changed or moved but because they have.

[Red Phoenix]

Mendoza's back now.

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Mendoza's back now.

Great news, I can finally get some sleep. I just had a look at her twitter, she seems like a mong. 

 

 

What a principled hero. Hope she doesn’t throw her shoulder out patting herself on the back. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

OK, for the sake sake of pedantry, I should have said that JLM's predecessor organisation was established to support the founding of a Jewish state in what was then the British protectorate of Palestine.  I had hoped that my shorthand version would be understood. 

 

As for Mendoza's "white supremacist" tweet, I probably would react differently if it was on a different subject because it would be a different tweet.  I stand by my view that Israel is a violent, oppressive, racist Apartheid state and an organisation that exists to make that state "central to Jewish life" or one that defines its members as "friends" of that State should be called out for aligning with some nasty bastards.  There are parallels with people who defended Apartheid South Africa  (not all of whom would have considered themselves as white supremacists).

[AngryOfTuebrook]

14 minutes ago, Numero said:

Great news, I can finally get some sleep. I just had a look at her twitter, she seems like a mong. 

 

 

What a principled hero. Hope she doesn’t throw her shoulder out patting herself on the back. 

This sort of tweet I will never agree with.  People who claim to be lefties saying "don't vote Labour" is every Tory's wank fantasy. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Except the analogy doesn't work on an elementary level, because Jews in Judea, like blacks in South Africa, are the natives.

Fucking hell. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

This sort of tweet I will never agree with.  People who claim to be lefties saying "don't vote Labour" is every Tory's wank fantasy. 

The issue I have is calling Labour leadership apartheid-enabling, transphobic neoliberals. It’s utterly ridiculous. Least they’re not like the last Jew-hating, communist criminals, right? With friends like these... 

 

People like her, that Skwakbox blogger, the Rachel Swindon fraudster, they’re just post-truth dickheads. That’s another way of saying liars. They’re stupid, dishonest fraudsters who manage to con the hard of thinking into believing their nonsense and into giving them money. They’re the post-left. Absolute shitheads. 

[sir roger]

1 hour ago, Numero said:

 The way you posted about them this morning indicates to me that you’ve lost all objectivity on this. I don’t know why or where it’s coming from, but I’ve seen you debate on other issues and this is different. It was like Sir Rog, his first reaction to somebody who narrowly escaped prison for abusing female Jewish MP was to attempt to deflect criticism from Corbyn. That isn’t him, and this isn’t you. 

 

From memory SD posted an article that mentioned  the guy being a Corbyn supporter in the headline, when it transpired that the idiot involved had been expelled from the party under Corbyn's leadership,so it seemed an obvious point to make.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 hours ago, Numero said:

I read it, you cocky gobshite. No matter how many times I read your slack-jawed dribbling, the content isn’t going to change. Now, you fucking read it. 
 

Don’t tell me to read your post, pretending it’s not there. I know you Corbynista fundamentalist weirdos live in a different reality, but don’t expect me to live there too. 
 

You even posted what he actually said, so maybe reading that, rather than just pinning it to the alter, might be a good start. 

 

I've only just seen this. Comedy gold. 

 

"Corbynista fundamentalist weirdo". No wonder I struggle to have a sensible conversation with you on this thread.  You think you're talking to someone else and you read into my posts whatever you imagine your "Corbynista fundamentalist" would say.  It's all very odd.

 

As for Corbyn's comments, when he referred to "the scale of the problem" which problem do you think he was talking about?  Climate change?  Covid-19?  The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict?  The declining popularity of the name Kevin?

 

Or do you think there's a chance - just the slightest chance - that in his statement on antisemitism in the Labour Party, in response to the EHRC report into antisemitism in the Labour Party, he was referring to anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

 

It's a real head-scratcher, I know.  Take your time.  I'm sure you'll see that I didn't "add" anything to Corbyn's comments that weren't already there.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

I've only just seen this. Comedy gold. 

 

"Corbynista fundamentalist weirdo". No wonder I struggle to have a sensible conversation with you on this thread.  You think you're talking to someone else and you read into my posts whatever you imagine your "Corbynista fundamentalist" would say.  It's all very odd.

 

As for Corbyn's comments, when he referred to "the scale of the problem" which problem do you think he was talking about?  Climate change?  Covid-19?  The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict?  The declining popularity of the name Kevin?

 

Or do you think there's a chance - just the slightest chance - that in his statement on antisemitism in the Labour Party, in response to the EHRC report into antisemitism in the Labour Party, he was referring to anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

 

It's a real head-scratcher, I know.  Take your time.  I'm sure you'll see that I didn't "add" anything to Corbyn's comments that weren't already there.

You have a localised comprehension issue. I’ll reply to this tomorrow. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, Numero said:

You have a localised comprehension issue. I’ll reply to this tomorrow. 

Goodnight, Sweetcheeks.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, sir roger said:

From memory SD posted an article that mentioned  the guy being a Corbyn supporter in the headline, when it transpired that the idiot involved had been expelled from the party under Corbyn's leadership,so it seemed an obvious point to make.

You first deflected from Corbyn (wrongly, but that doesn’t really matter), then tried to make a point about the complaints process, then after I criticised him you made a post that broadly agreed with the guy except for bringing staff into it and some swearing. 

 

I say this because if it was an identical situation but with a different politician, I am confident that you wouldn’t have done anything bar slam the bullshit. Maybe I’ve just misjudged you and you lads are actually just dickheads will to overly some nasty shit, but I’m honestly trying to give the benefit of the doubt. At minimum, there’s some serious wood for the trees stuff going on. 

[Section_31]

The Mendoza stuff is mad. She's fuming that Starmer has spoken to someone she doesn't approve of, been briefly banned by Twitter, by Twitter, but then come out raging at Labour for being transphobic and saying she'll never vote for them again? 

 

Dunno what I'm missing but it seems a bit bonkers. I remember I fell over once when I was a kid, nobody's fault but mine, but when I got up I told my mum to fuck off then started crying.

 

I miss the days when Labour discourse used to centre around stuff like jobs, wages, the NHS and education. Good times.

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The Mendoza stuff is mad. She's fuming that Starmer has spoken to someone she doesn't approve of, been briefly banned by Twitter, by Twitter, but then come out raging at Labour for being transphobic and saying she'll never vote for them again? 

 

Dunno what I'm missing but it seems a bit bonkers. I remember I fell over once when I was a kid, nobody's fault but mine, but when I got up I told my mum to fuck off then started crying.

 

I miss the days when Labour discourse used to centre around stuff like jobs, wages, the NHS and education. Good times.

Thing is, they’re clearly beyond reason. No amount of facts, logic, rationale, or sound coherent argument will get them to snap the fuck out of it. It’s almost part of these people’s identity. There’s a fag paper between them and Trump supporters. They share a sense self-righteous indignation coupled with a belief they’re the good guys, and it has got to the point where they actually can’t see their own bias and seem to believe something is good and right because they believe it and the logical conclusion they derive from that flawed position is that anything offered as a counter must be wrong and evil. 

[A Red]

To be a leftie it seems as though you have to proclaim your support for Palestine, fair enough, they deserve not to be killed and have the same human rights as anyone else. Why is Israel given far more attention than any other country that does shit things? What incenses so many educated lefties that they spend so much time on the topic? Is it that they see Israel = Jews = Capitalism? 

 

I think that the average voter might care about people being oppressed or killed around the world but doesnt see a difference between Palestine and, say, Burma or Congo, and certainly wont have their vote swayed over it.

 

I genuinely dont understand the completely disproportionate consideration given to the Israel/Jews/Palestine issue.

[Captain Howdy]

7 hours ago, Section_31 said:

The Mendoza stuff is mad. She's fuming that Starmer has spoken to someone she doesn't approve of, been briefly banned by Twitter, by Twitter, but then come out raging at Labour for being transphobic and saying she'll never vote for them again? 

 

Dunno what I'm missing but it seems a bit bonkers. I remember I fell over once when I was a kid, nobody's fault but mine, but when I got up I told my mum to fuck off then started crying.

 

I miss the days when Labour discourse used to centre around stuff like jobs, wages, the NHS and education. Good times.

Quite, the way Israel and Palestine dominates the party is fucking bizarre.

[Captain Howdy]

Just seen A Reds post, yeah that’s the point I’m making.

[Gnasher]

7 hours ago, Section_31 said:

The Mendoza stuff is mad. She's fuming that Starmer has spoken to someone she doesn't approve of, been briefly banned by Twitter, by Twitter, but then come out raging at Labour for being transphobic and saying she'll never vote for them again? 

 

Dunno what I'm missing but it seems a bit bonkers. I remember I fell over once when I was a kid, nobody's fault but mine, but when I got up I told my mum to fuck off then started crying.

 

I miss the days when Labour discourse used to centre around stuff like jobs, wages, the NHS and education. Good times.

Maybe just maybe the reason Labour is not talking about jobs, wages, the NHS and education is that the ex leader of the party has just been suspended and the new leader and deputy leader are addressing a Jewish conference talking about anti semitism.

 

I'd take a wild guess that the person you seem to despise, Jeremy Corbyn, would have liked nothing more than to talk about the NHS, jobs and education but certain factions within the Labour party seemed intent on moving the focus away from those issues and onto the subject of anti semitism. Its ironic that the faction that seemed intent on not talking about jobs, education, the NHS are the people within the Labour party that you seem to align yourself to. 

[Section_31]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

Maybe just maybe the reason Labour is not talking about jobs, wages, the NHS and education is that the ex leader of the party has just been suspended and the new leader and deputy leader are addressing a Jewish conference talking about anti semitism.

 

I'd take a wild guess that the person you seem to despise, Jeremy Corbyn, would have liked nothing more than to talk about the NHS, jobs and education but certain factions within the Labour party seemed intent on moving the focus away from those issues and onto the subject of anti semitism. Its ironic that the faction that seemed intent on not talking about jobs, education, the NHS are the people within the Labour party that you seem to align yourself to. 

 

Straw mannery. 

 

I don't dislike corbyn at all as a man, let alone despise him, I'm not even that fussed on Starmer, and have said repeatedly I'm not even that fussed on Labour but see them as the best of a bad bunch.

 

This is the kind of "with us or against us" patter that sees people like Gordon Brown branded "a Blairite". A bit like Oliver Cromwell being branded a Royalist.

 

That's what people are up against though. In Corbyn land, as far as his supporters are concerned the only decent Labour MP or viable Labour leader is Jeremy Corbyn, the only other leader they'd countenance is a leader chosen by Jeremy Corbyn, and only as a place holder until Jeremy can return.

 

Starmer's biggest crime in their eyes, from before he even took over, was not being Corbyn and not being chosen by Corbyn. 

[Gnasher]

29 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Quite, the way Israel and Palestine dominates the party is fucking bizarre.

It's not really bizarre it's just a method that was used by certain factions to ensure a Socialist did not become prime minister. Similar tactics were used against Michael Foot. 

 

The reason anti semitism is centre stage is because of the efforts like the people below,

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/07/former-labour-mp-ian-austin-urges-voters-back-boris-johnson

[Gnasher]

On 28/11/2020 at 09:23, Section_31 said:

For all the demonising of Starmer, it's important to remember that Corbyn kicked this whole thing off with his statement, which he released despite having had a conversation with his duly elected party leader the night before.

 

Much in the same style of "I'm not deleting my tweet" RLB, it's been nothing but a series of "fuck yous",  as one would expect from someone who's broken the whip more than a poundshop Indiana Jones, and his chosen successor. But when their bluff has been called the indignation and outrage has flown thick and fast. 

 

It's just protest politics and he doesn't care who he's protesting against. He probably views the Labour party, save for a handful of close friends, as being no different from the rest of the people and organisations he's railed against in his career.

 

But if you showed Corbyn a crystal ball and he could see he'd never have been in number 10 for the next 20 years, but he could have had plenty of chances to profess his outrage at various establishment injustices, he'd have taken that IMO, and that makes him a bad party leader and someone who clearly doesn't care as much as he says he does.

 

It's no good for the many millions doomed to perpetual Tory rule though, and that's why I don't swallow the bollocks about what a lovely man he is. Personally I don't want hugs or solidarity, I want a functioning government that doesn't take back handers and is content to see my kids starve. 

 On Corbyn,

 

 

"Someone who clearly doesn't care as much as he says he does" 

 

"Its just protest politics and he doesn't even care what he's protesting about"

 

"I dont swallow the bollocks what a lovely man he is"

 

"I dont want hugs or solidarity"

 

 

Section, the above quotes are not from Margret Hodge or John Mann but from yourself yesterday.