Simplify the debate on Rafa

[Guest PurpleNose]

1) What should be done for the rest of the season to try & improve our lot.[/quoteIT]

 

Clearout- Voronin, Babel, Degen, Plessis, El Zhar, Dossena, Martin, Threlfall, Duran, Brouwer, Weijl, Mendy and Flora all to be sold or released in January.

 

Sign a striker for £6m-£10m. Someone that can play upfront on their own if need be.

 

Stop playing two holding midfielders, especially at home.

 

Play Aquilani.

 

Don't play Carragher and Kuyt on the same flank. Neither can attack.

 

Don't play Insua and Babel on the same flank. Neither can defend.

 

Don't play N'Gog upfront on his own, especially against half decent opposition. He's not good enough yet.

 

2) What should be done at the end of the season.[/quoteIT]

 

Release - Itandje, Simon and Macia.

 

Consider the future of - Cavalieri, Riera, Kyrgiakos, Aurelio, every single youngster at the club, Benitez, all of Benitez' entourage.

 

Sign a replacement for Mascherano when he goes to Barca in the summer.

 

Sign a winger who has pace, can dribble, and can cross the ball.

 

Stop buying lorry loads of shite youngsters.

 

Stop buying shite old fringe players on massive wages.

 

Promote the youngsters with promise - Kelly, Butchman, Mavinga, Pacheco, Amoo etc.

 

Win the quadruple.

[Red Nick]

Our defending is costing us more than going forward has done.

 

Decisions being plural so what's the others? You seriously don't need to mentioned the left back decision as your opinion on that is crystal.

 

Its crystal because it is so fucking obvious and so fucking anoying that Rafa is being too stubborn to admit he is wrong or more worryingly doesnt see a problem

 

The team on Saturday should tell us a few things

[Iantn]

There`s still an awful lot to play for this season : two pieces of silverware (FA Cup/Europa League) and the all important CL spot, so why entrust the rest of the season to the man who is responsible for the mess we are in? The priority is the welfare of the team and not Rafa Benitez. So what if it costs a lot to sack him, it will cost an awful lot more if fail to reach next years CL and that looks a racing certainty at the minute.

 

So who takes over then to win these trophies and secure a top4 place?

 

I thought I'd guess given it seems so obvious to you like.

 

Oh an "a racing certainty"? I've obviously missed the point that we are so far off the top 4 that it doesn't look a possiblitity.

[Iantn]

Its crystal because it is so fucking obvious and so fucking anoying that Rafa is being too stubborn to admit he is wrong or more worryingly doesnt see a problem

 

The team on Saturday should tell us a few things

 

Right so no others then? Sound.

 

Who exactly, given Fabio hasn't been fit around probably 70% of the season, should be starting there?

[derykw]

So who takes over then to win these trophies and secure a top4 place?

 

I thought I'd guess given it seems so obvious to you like.

 

Oh an "a racing certainty"? I've obviously missed the point that we are so far off the top 4 that it doesn't look a possiblitity.

 

I`d try for Hiddink now that Russia`s campaign is over, he won the FA last year.

 

Long term i`d love us to get Mourinho if possible. Of course there is no guarantee any future Manager will be successful or even do any better than what we are now but being scared of change is no reason to persevere with the failing incumbant.

 

And IMO we aren`t going to finish in the top 4. Current form and events leads me to this conclusion.

[Iantn]

I`d try for Hiddink now that Russia`s campaign is over, he won the FA last year.

 

Long term i`d love us to get Mourinho if possible. Of course there is no guarantee any future Manager will be successful or even do any better than what we are now but being scared of change is no reason to persevere with the failing incumbant.

 

And IMO we aren`t going to finish in the top 4. Current form and events leads me to this conclusion.

 

After being at Chelsea would he even think about coming here?

 

As good as he is Mourinho is a cunt who I don't want associated with this club. But that's been done to death elsewhere.

 

Current form isn't encouraging but neither is that of those that are expected to challenge us for them positions. If we get players fit I expect us to kick on, but we shall see.

[llego]

Agree with the first post in this thread except giving Babel a run.

[Red Nick]

Right so no others then? Sound.

 

Who exactly, given Fabio hasn't been fit around probably 70% of the season, should be starting there?

 

Anyone bar Insua, even Dossena and thats saying a lot.

 

In the games where Johnson was fit I would have played Kelly at RB and played Johnson at LB.

 

Interestingly the one game we won in 10 was when we had two LBs on the pitch but even then when Valencia isolated Insua it was the only time Utd looked like scoring

[Paul]

Keep Rafa for the season regardless of the results-changing Managers mid-season doesn't work.
Consider Man to Man marking urgently at set pieces, or get men back on the posts with Zonal and work it to death on the practice pitch.
Give Aquilani a series of games building him up to 90 minutes (30, 60, 70, 80, 90 etc) regardless.
Give Babbel a run of 5 games starting (guaranteed 70 minutes) OR sell him in January.
Use the Greek in more games when we're up against big, physical teams playing set pieces (Stoke, Bolton etc).
Make Yossi the player in the hole when Gerrard's out, not Dirk.
Give Kelly & Ayala opportunities whenever you can, have them on the bench most games & build their confidence, give them a sense of involvement.
Ditch Lucas or Masch in games against teams other than the top 3-4, play one small DM but add an attacking option.
Try & get another Striker on loan in January as a priority (I'd have the horse without thinking, or Pavlychencko).
Close down the other teams, pressurise-it is this we have forgotten to do this season I believe.
If Tores is fit, play him for the 90 minutes regardless, he's the biggest cause for concern on the other team & keeps 3 men occupied.
Get behind the team & save the inquest until the season end.

 

On the second part:

If we fail to get Top 4 Rafa has got to look at himself and consider his future.
If the ownership changed at any time (please God) it's right & fair for any new owner(s) to put whoever they want in charge or retain them.
If the Yanks are still here & money's nowhere to be seen fast track the younger players (Kelly, Ayala, Eccleston [if he signs a contract], Pacheco, Amoo etc) and get rid of the Bosman dross (Voronin, Dossena,Degen etc). Hunger, youth & ambition beats a pay cheque and accepting your lot.

 

To be fair to Rafa, much of that seems to be either what he's already doing, has hinted he's going to do or wants to do but can't as players are injured.

 

I'd disagree with your point about changing managers half way through a season, though. Many new managers get a big uplift from the players when they arrive - Hiddink at Chelsea being the most obvious. As for Babel, he's shite and always will be. It's sell, not play for me.

 

My stance on Rafa is that if we could get Hiddink, Capello or Mourinho (in that order), I'd sack him immediately (or as soon as they became willing and able to join us). However, I think that is highly unlikely and so I'd stick with him until the end of the season and if we finish fourth I'd probably retain him, albeit with a serious review of how he's operating - especially in the transfer market where I feel we miss with new signings at all levels of outlay too frequently. If we miss out though, I'd definitely replace him. In my view, fourth is the bare minimum expectation and if we fall below I'd say it was time for a change.

 

However, what I can see happening is a limp to fourth and a return to a huge gap between us and the champions - easily 20 points. He'll keep his job and continue the process I expect to see begin in January of selling the expensive dross to make way for young players. He's fought too long, got too little cash and made too many noises about it for him not to do so, in my view. Shame he hadn't tried this approach before instead of putting his energies into a destabilising fight with Parry for control.

 

What the future will hold then though is impossible to foresee. Without serious investment in first team quality in a minimum of 2-3 positions (depending on the fitness and development of Agger and Aquilani, both huge question marks) I think this will be our last season in the top four (if indeed it finishes that way). The Mancs and Chelsea are secure, The Arse are developing to a point where they can weather their deficiencies and City will just go wild again in the next 2-4 windows.

[Toddler]

 

On my part I'd answer the first as follows:

• 
  Keep Rafa for the season regardless of the results-changing Managers mid-season doesn't work.
  Consider Man to Man marking urgently at set pieces, or get men back on the posts with Zonal and work it to death on the practice pitch.
  Give Aquilani a series of games building him up to 90 minutes (30, 60, 70, 80, 90 etc) regardless.
  Give Babbel a run of 5 games starting (guaranteed 70 minutes) OR sell him in January.
  Use the Greek in more games when we're up against big, physical teams playing set pieces (Stoke, Bolton etc).
  Make Yossi the player in the hole when Gerrard's out, not Dirk.
  Give Kelly & Ayala opportunities whenever you can, have them on the bench most games & build their confidence, give them a sense of involvement.
  Ditch Lucas or Masch in games against teams other than the top 3-4, play one small DM but add an attacking option.
  Try & get another Striker on loan in January as a priority (I'd have the horse without thinking, or Pavlychencko).
  Close down the other teams, pressurise-it is this we have forgotten to do this season I believe.
  If Tores is fit, play him for the 90 minutes regardless, he's the biggest cause for concern on the other team & keeps 3 men occupied.
  Get behind the team & save the inquest until the season end.

 

On the second part:

1. 
   If we fail to get Top 4 Rafa has got to look at himself and consider his future.
   If the ownership changed at any time (please God) it's right & fair for any new owner(s) to put whoever they want in charge or retain them.
   If the Yanks are still here & money's nowhere to be seen fast track the younger players (Kelly, Ayala, Eccleston [if he signs a contract], Pacheco, Amoo etc) and get rid of the Bosman dross (Voronin, Dossena,Degen etc). Hunger, youth & ambition beats a pay cheque and accepting your lot.
   

 

I've got to agree with a lot of that except a) the man marking - its not the system -its the players executing the system that is failing. Look at West Ham's equaliser yesterday - man on the post fails to stop shot straight at him - whatever system you use, if you don't execute it right, it fails.

 

b) Ayala is too slow. Its not just his inexperience and confidence that needs building, he just hasn't got the pace for the premiership -soz.

 

c) Babel, just won't make it, best get rid in January.

 

d) We're due a run of good luck!!!

[WhiskeyJar]

Always the optimist I am, but after that Spurs hammering, for the first time, I really fear for my club.

 

Next year Champions League in un-certain which has an impact on us financially and the type of players we attract.

 

The same owners that dont help us when we need it the most.

 

A half fit team that has a half decent bench that was won 1 in 10.

 

4th place hopefulls hammering mid table teams.

 

When do I start panicing?

[Woo]

There is a thread where the exact same thing is being debated, and you couldn't possibly have missed it, so why did you start your own one?

[stringvest]

Always the optimist I am, but after that Spurs hammering, for the first time, I really fear for my club.

 

Next year Champions League in un-certain which has an impact on us financially and the type of players we attract.

 

The same owners that dont help us when we need it the most.

 

A half fit team that has a half decent bench that was won 1 in 10.

 

4th place hopefulls hammering mid table teams.

 

When do I start panicing?

 

I'm optimistic for the long term future of my club, and while these are dark times, they will be lifted with new owners, new manager and new playing personnel. The only people I see as intrinsically linked with the welfare and the identity of the club are Gerrard, Carragher and Dalglish. They are the most important people associated with the club to me.

[Anny Road]

I was pissed last night and posted a lot of shite but one thing pissed or not I stand by is that we need to get rid of Benitez. Lovely man but it's over.

[djb1980]

People need to stop talking about getting rid of Rafa. He aint going anywhere between now and the end of the season. He knows what he wants to do with the team but he is unable to get the players on pitch due to injuries. Even his plan b team is unable to get on the field and stay there. We are only 5 points off 3rd place as of now after a really bad few months of the season. We have missed Gerrard and Torres over the last few months and even Johnson who is a major attacking threat for us has been in and out. We always finish the season strong so I think we can still finish in the top 4 if we start getting back to winning ways. Aqualini will slowly start coming into the team in next few weeks and should give everyone a lift.

 

Any team would struggle if they had the amount of first team players missing we have had in last few months. Arsenal have been flying and yesterday showed without there main attacker are a different team. People can go on about having backup but noone is good enough to replace Torres or Gerrard.

[Anny Road]

People need to stop talking about getting rid of Rafa. He aint going anywhere between now and the end of the season. He knows what he wants to do with the team but he is unable to get the players on pitch due to injuries. Even his plan b team is unable to get on the field and stay there. We are only 5 points off 3rd place as of now after a really bad few months of the season. We have missed Gerrard and Torres over the last few months and even Johnson who is a major attacking threat for us has been in and out. We always finish the season strong so I think we can still finish in the top 4 if we start getting back to winning ways. Aqualini will slowly start coming into the team in next few weeks and should give everyone a lift.

 

Any team would struggle if they had the amount of first team players missing we have had in last few months. Arsenal have been flying and yesterday showed without there main attacker are a different team. People can go on about having backup but noone is good enough to replace Torres or Gerrard.

 

[zigackly]

I'm optimistic for the long term future of my club, and while these are dark times, they will be lifted with new owners, new manager and new playing personnel.

 

That's not optimism stringy, you've been on the ecstasy haven't you?

[Red Nick]

 

Rafapologists are very good at making excuses but not too good at tellling us how Rafa is going to get us out of the shit.

 

Its the future that matters not the past and I dont see a positive future with Rafa in charge but if the Rafapologist actually want to tell us how Rafa will make it better I am prepared to listen

[Iantn]

Get's our best eleven on the pitch and we'll win more than we lose. Next?

[thechap]

I don't know where we're headed. I don't know what the future holds. I'm bloody depressed and bloody angry.

 

But one thing I believe (my opinion only, I know) is that I have zero faith that Rafa Benitez can bring us the league title. People may point to our run during the second half of last season but I honestly believe we rode our luck far too many times to say we were genuinely the second best team in last seasons' competition.

 

Given that I have zero faith in our current manager - and I really wish it was different - to deliver us the title (and it really is zero. I see NOTHING that makes me think he knows how to deliver the title), I have to stand by my convictions and say that he should be replaced now. Whether we could or not is another matter but I believe that we should. It therefore follows that if there was someone decent available now then I'd sack Rafa and bring the new person in.

 

It really is Houllier all over again. The same old shit performances all over again. Then it was two incompetents running the club. Now it's two cunts. The priciple is the same in that both pairs are/were unsuitable owners.

 

The manager buys and sells the players. The manager makes the team selections. The manager gives the team the tactics. The manager directs the players. The manager motivates the team.

 

The manager is failing on all counts.

[stringvest]

Nah, I gave all that shite up years ago when I found God. Or am I getting mixed up with crystal meth again?

[jonolfcmad]

Are any of you starting to lose trust in benitez or are you all still behind him ??

[ferryman]

As long as he is our gaffer, I´m behind him 100%. As any Liverpool supporter should.

[kop]

Try reading through one or two of the 10098277843 threads about him the last two months, or even one of the 16 started today, to find out.

[JohnnyH]

Never had 100% trust in Rafa. Never understood the way people can just dive in after a bit of success. I didn't have "trust is Ged" after 2001. I didn't get into the Skrtel love in a while back. And I wont get into a trust in Paul Jewell next season either.