The Positively Atheist Thread

[zigackly]

You seem to have a narrow view of Christians, Stu.

 

When I picture the Christianity you conjure in your imagery, it seems to be that American evangelical one.  It may just be my reading, like, but that Christianity is not what I recognise in the people I know.

 

The Christians I know don't seem to think about the carrot/stick of heaven and hell, or if they do, they have a good way of hiding it.  It's certainly not a daily consideration.

 

As a matter of interest, how many Christians do you know / interact with / discuss faith with?

 

Speaking personally, it's only the evangelists of any stripe that I have any kind of problem with. I've worked with quite a few churches (and mosques, and synagogues) in the last few years and I didn't meet a single person whose beliefs bothered me in the slightest as a result, and I'm not aware that anyone had a problem with my atheism either, because we are all working for the same things in our local community. 

 

Religion is never going to be an option for me; my personal history has inoculated me to faith in outside agencies, but despite that I believe I understand what personal faith is and, without trying to be condescending, why people have a need for it.

 

Organised religion on the other hand, has always been used as a tool by a few bad actors for gaining wealth and power, and I do object to that. I also don't think you can deny that the carrot/stick approach has been a huge part of that, and it's only very recently that any kind of tolerance has emerged for people taking a personal approach to religion. We don't have to go very far back to a time when all of those moderate christians would have burned at the stake for heresy.

[zigackly]

To finish that thought, I don't absolve evangelistic atheists either. I do believe people have a right to whatever personal beliefs they choose, insofar as those beliefs are not damaging to others and not inflicted upon others past the point of tolerance.

[Jose Jones]

Great post Zig.

What would you call an evangelical atheist though? Someone who wants all religions banned?

Or just someone who thinks they're all bogus and wants to aggressively take the piss?

[zigackly]

Great post Zig.

What would you call an evangelical atheist though? Someone who wants all religions banned?

Or just someone who thinks they're all bogus and wants to aggressively take the piss?

 

I guess I just mean someone who is intolerant of other people's beliefs. We're never all going to agree on this, so my feeling is we need to live with our differences, and that applies equally to both "sides". I'm not always good at it, but then tolerance has always been something that has to be worked at ... guess we are naturally tribal creatures.

[Rico1304]

Have any of you ever considered that the religious people you know aren't telling you the whole truth because they know you'll find it unpalatable?

[Jose Jones]

Have any of you ever considered that the religious people you know aren't telling you the whole truth because they know you'll find it unpalatable?

Maybe. But then it sort of still depends on how they behave with those beliefs right?

One of my aunties is a classic Catholic, sent her kids to Catholic school, but barely ever goes to church outside special occasions, never reads the bible or whatever. If you asked her though she would say she believes prayers work and that God and the various saints are listening, etc.

 

Religion has very little to do with how she lives her life, but her results in a poll would make her seem like a massive crazy loon. People can be strange and contradictory creatures, yo.

[Hand Shandy]

Speaking personally, it's only the evangelists of any stripe that I have any kind of problem with. I've worked with quite a few churches (and mosques, and synagogues) in the last few years and I didn't meet a single person whose beliefs bothered me in the slightest as a result, and I'm not aware that anyone had a problem with my atheism either, because we are all working for the same things in our local community.

 

Religion is never going to be an option for me; my personal history has inoculated me to faith in outside agencies, but despite that I believe I understand what personal faith is and, without trying to be condescending, why people have a need for it.

 

Organised religion on the other hand, has always been used as a tool by a few bad actors for gaining wealth and power, and I do object to that. I also don't think you can deny that the carrot/stick approach has been a huge part of that, and it's only very recently that any kind of tolerance has emerged for people taking a personal approach to religion. We don't have to go very far back to a time when all of those moderate christians would have burned at the stake for heresy.

Yep.

[Hand Shandy]

To finish that thought, I don't absolve evangelistic atheists either. I do believe people have a right to whatever personal beliefs they choose, insofar as those beliefs are not damaging to others and not inflicted upon others past the point of tolerance.

And yep.

[Rico1304]

Maybe. But then it sort of still depends on how they behave with those beliefs right?

One of my aunties is a classic Catholic, sent her kids to Catholic school, but barely ever goes to church outside special occasions, never reads the bible or whatever. If you asked her though she would say she believes prayers work and that God and the various saints are listening, etc.

 

Religion has very little to do with how she lives her life, but her results in a poll would make her seem like a massive crazy loon. People can be strange and contradictory creatures, yo.

But you can't say that. It influenced her enough to send her kids to a particular school and it could impact on lots of decisions which you aren't privy to. You'd have to question her pretty thoroughly to make your judgement, something I guess you haven't done.

[Stu Monty]

I don't care about other people's beliefs. I don't care about your insistence on drawing false conclusions from survey data and on ignoring observable facts.

 

For clarification, I have not changed any arguments; I only do that in the face of new evidence.

 

As for your final question, I've already said that if you think people's stated beliefs are inconsistent with their actions, you need to take it up with them, not me.

It's irritating that I'm trying to have a conversation and you're trying to avoid giving your view on things I'm asking you.

 

It's not complicated. The "take it up with them" line is pretty fucking sad.

 

You're also being a bit if a cunt with your false conclusions bullshit, so we'll call it a day.

 

I want a chat, you think you're on the fucking stand.

[VladimirIlyich]

As somebody who attended the same Catholic High School as AoT i think we seem to be cut from the same cloth,so to speak.

We are both atheists but have been exposed to a lot of people who are believers in religion but dont judge or act differently because of those beliefs.

The 'fires of hell' argument barely seems to have any relevence to Western religions and is more of a tool(often used by people who are tools!) to frighten,often uneducated masses into unpalatable and intolerant behaviour.

I have family and extended family who are still churchgoers but if you met them you wouldnt know if they were religious or not. It certainly doesnt affect their political or everyday behaviour.

From my own outside view,the 'fire and brimstone' mob seem like people who have a few issues of their own and project them issues outwards instead of inwards. They could also be big,massive phonies with ulterior motives,which is what it looks like to me.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Have any of you ever considered that the religious people you know aren't telling you the whole truth because they know you'll find it unpalatable?

Wouldn't they be scared of eternal damnation for telling porkies?

[Strontium]

If they are so reticent, how do you know what they really believe?

 

Where have I said that I know what they believe?

 

All I can be (relatively) sure about is that they believe in the Christian God, a concept that is demonstrably false.

[Strontium]

Wouldn't they be scared of eternal damnation for telling porkies?

 

I am unsure about other religions, but certainly in the case of Islam, the religion mandates dishonesty if it will aid in self-preservation.

[Stu Monty]

You seem to have a narrow view of Christians, Stu.

 

When I picture the Christianity you conjure in your imagery, it seems to be that American evangelical one.  It may just be my reading, like, but that Christianity is not what I recognise in the people I know.

 

The Christians I know don't seem to think about the carrot/stick of heaven and hell, or if they do, they have a good way of hiding it.  It's certainly not a daily consideration.

 

As a matter of interest, how many Christians do you know / interact with / discuss faith with?

 

I know, and like, plenty of religious people and tend to avoid talking to them about it. It's a pretty pointless exercise. They go all around the houses to avoid basic sensible points, much like often happens on here.

 

Do you believe in heaven and hell Razor?

[Jose Jones]

But you can't say that. It influenced her enough to send her kids to a particular school and it could impact on lots of decisions which you aren't privy to. You'd have to question her pretty thoroughly to make your judgement, something I guess you haven't done.

Well, I've known her for every single 39 and a bit years of my life like, so I'm pretty sure I can make a good enough judge of her behaviour.

[Jose Jones]

I know, and like, plenty of religious people and tend to avoid talking to them about it. It's a pretty pointless exercise. They go all around the houses to avoid basic sensible points, much like often happens on here.

 

Do you believe in heaven and hell Razor?

What would you say if razor, or another hypothetical Christian, said that they believed in heaven in the sense that if you live a good life according to Christian values then after you are dead you "live on" in the thoughts of all the people you have helped and loved?

 

And that he'll was the opposite with people thinking of you as a bastard for ever more. So that from their reading of it living with God in heaven is an allegory for the memories you leave?

[Rico1304]

Well, I've known her for every single 39 and a bit years of my life like, so I'm pretty sure I can make a good enough judge of her behaviour.

So you haven't asked her then? Thought not.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's irritating that I'm trying to have a conversation and you're trying to avoid giving your view on things I'm asking you.

 

It's not complicated. The "take it up with them" line is pretty fucking sad.

 

You're also being a bit if a cunt with your false conclusions bullshit, so we'll call it a day.

 

I want a chat, you think you're on the fucking stand.

I'm really not trying to avoid giving my views on anything.  I thought I already had, but I'll try to answer your questions now.  If I've missed anything, let me know.

 

There was a survey in which 68% of people said they believed in Heaven & Hell.  It's true, as you say, that if these people truly believed that, then, logically, it should be the most important influence on how they live their lives.  In my experience, there are many people who, if asked, would say that they believe in Heaven and Hell, but it is clearly not an overriding day-to-day/every waking hour concern.  Therefore, it's unreasonable to conclude that every one of the 68% who answered "Yes" to that survey are likely to be any sort of fundamentalists... or even practicing members of their religion.  I would guess (and that's all any of us can do) that within that 68% are some individuals who are Westboro style bigots; some who are gentle, prayerful, charitable types; and some who just live their lives as though they don't really believe in any sort of judgement after death (plus all shades of belief and behaviour in between).  

 

I'm really not trying to be a dick, but it just seems like I'm answering questions, then you're asking them again.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I am unsure about other religions, but certainly in the case of Islam, the religion mandates dishonesty if it will aid in self-preservation.

But not if the person your talking too might find your honesty unpalatable?

 

Also, aren't the Old & New Testaments full of "thou shalt not bear false witness", "the truth will set you free", Satan is the "Father of LIes" ans St Peter being a bit of a twat for denying Jesus? 

[Jose Jones]

So you haven't asked her then? Thought not.

Well of course I have conversed with her extensively for years and years on numerous topics including religion and know how she thinks and what she does and how she goes about things, yes.

 

I have not waterboarded her until she confessed to be a religious freak, which is what you seem to be demanding.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Where have I said that I know what they believe?

 

All I can be (relatively) sure about is that they believe in the Christian God, a concept that is demonstrably false.

You said that "most Christians" were reticent about what they really believe... which suggests that you are aware of something they believe which they're not saying.  Care to elucidate?

 

As for God (of any stripe) being "demonstrably false"... you should publish those demonstrations, you could change the world, once everyone sees the error of their ways.  The whole point of faith is that it's about believing in things that can't be observed or reasoned; so any appeals to God's non-appearance or to rational arguments, unfortunately, don't cut it as demonstrating that God doesn't exist.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Rico's taking the "yer Ma" argument to a whole new level, here!

[VladimirIlyich]

What would you say if razor, or another hypothetical Christian, said that they believed in heaven in the sense that if you live a good life according to Christian values then after you are dead you "live on" in the thoughts of all the people you have helped and loved?

 

And that he'll was the opposite with people thinking of you as a bastard for ever more. So that from their reading of it living with God in heaven is an allegory for the memories you leave?

I'd say that this sounds like I'd imagine a good few religious people think and why they hold such beliefs.

Would be difficult to argue with it,for me anyhow.

[razor]

Where have I said that I know what they believe?

 

All I can be (relatively) sure about is that they believe in the Christian God, a concept that is demonstrably false.

 

Ah, so that's that then.

 

I know, and like, plenty of religious people and tend to avoid talking to them about it. It's a pretty pointless exercise. They go all around the houses to avoid basic sensible points, much like often happens on here.

 

Do you believe in heaven and hell Razor?

 

Genuine apologies for the assumption, Stu.  It was based on the fact that religion seems to make your blood boil, so I thought you wouldn't associate with any religious types - I was wrong and I'm sorry.

 

As for your question, I believe there are lots of lovely and intelligent people who believe in Heaven and Hell.  Personally I have no great conviction on it.  I would say that I don't believe there is a red bloke sticking a trident up people's burning arses for all eternity, which is what some people conceive of "hell".

 

I do believe in a spiritual plain, and I believe there is a huge amount of stuff that is beyond human comprehension, so I would not rule out the existence of heaven.  What that would "look" like, if indeed it "looked" like anything probably wouldn't be misty lush vegetation and gently chirping birds.  They are within the realms of human understanding, and is the only way we can imagine - the limits of the human brain.

 

The way the brain learns /understands is to associate new knowledge with existing knowledge.  Therefore it is very difficult for us to look beyond what we know to conceive of something as abstract as "hell" and 'heaven".  Beardy bloke and red man fit the bill.

 

Do you believe in any kind of spiritual plain, Stu?