Roy tells Degen to leave the club

[Kennys_spell]

I don't think the 16 plus youngsters approach is enough to even challenge over a season let alone win anything (except a Cup maybe if we were lucky with injuries).

 

And what's the point of saying give youngsters a chance and then shipping them off if they don't hit the first team running? Insua isn't good enough to be first team regular but as a back-up he's currently miles ahead of anyone else at the club. Same with N'Gog - eight goals last year which isn't many less than the likes of Carlton Cole and Zamora who had a lot more playing time. Two players who came through the reserves and now most people seem delighted to class as shite and sell off to make room for who exactly?

 

Same thing happened with Spearing - a few games and now he's the forgotten man. Get in Shelvey, he's the new star even though nobody's seen him play yet. Six games and he'll be "shite".

 

Ayala, Kelly and Pachecho are the only youngsters anywhere near ready for the league but they're not yet good enough to rely on for an extended period.

 

 

There seems to be a lot of "Guilt by association" going on with these players.

[Kennys_spell]

Do you not think that Roy may be the man to get the best out of Babel?

 

Personally I think that if a manager showed belief in him and got him to work a little harder, we may see a different player. Stranger things have happened.

 

NO! No manager can get the best out of Babel - only Babel can get the best out of Babel but he would need a new spine and Heart to get the best out of him.

[Guest TK-421]

We'll see. Most of our second-tier players provided such insipid and downright shit performances last year when called upon that I find it difficult to believe our reserves could do worse.

 

You could say the same thing about the first-tier players, except for Mascherano and Reina.

[Kennys_spell]

You could say the same thing about the first-tier players, except for Mascherano and Reina.

 

I know it's not fashionable to say but I though Kuyt had a decent season as well.

[Stu Monty]

I'm still not having Paul's assertion of Rafa being a disaster in the transfer market. I think that if you see what he started with and what he managed to do with £20m net a year he, for the most part, made the best of a bad situation. Bringing in four world class players that any club in the world would want (Reina, Alonso, Mascherano & Torres) and many, many more good players that he turned a good profit on to keep making cash for himself. There is some dross on the fringes of the squad and last year wasn't a good year for him, that doesn't justify forgetting all the good business he did with very little money (comparatively).

 

The idea that some of these wouldn't be getting shipped out by Rafa is a silly one too. Saying "Roy can see that El Zhar is shit, why couldn't Rafa" is just daft. I'd imagine he knew he was poor; every time I saw him getting five minutes at the end of games I always thought it was Rafa trying to put him in the shop window and bump his price a bit.

 

I know Paul will disagree with this, as we've had this conversation a few times, but I think my assessment is a fairer one.

[Delmar]

I'm still not having Paul's assertion of Rafa being a disaster in the transfer market. I think that if you see what he started with and what he managed to do with £20m net a year he, for the most part, made the best of a bad situation. Bringing in four world class players that any club in the world would want (Reina, Alonso, Mascherano & Torres) and many, many more good players that he turned a good profit on to keep making cash for himself. There is some dross on the fringes of the squad and last year wasn't a good year for him, that doesn't justify forgetting all the good business he did with very little money (comparatively).

 

The idea that some of these wouldn't be getting shipped out by Rafa is a silly one too. Saying "Roy can see that El Zhar is shit, why couldn't Rafa" is just daft. I'd imagine he knew he was poor; every time I saw him getting five minutes at the end of games I always thought it was Rafa trying to put him in the shop window and bump his price a bit.

 

I know Paul will disagree with this, as we've had this conversation a few times, but I think my assessment is a fairer one.

 

You think correctly.

[Randy Marsh]

I'm still not having Paul's assertion of Rafa being a disaster in the transfer market. I think that if you see what he started with and what he managed to do with £20m net a year he, for the most part, made the best of a bad situation. Bringing in four world class players that any club in the world would want (Reina, Alonso, Mascherano & Torres) and many, many more good players that he turned a good profit on to keep making cash for himself. There is some dross on the fringes of the squad and last year wasn't a good year for him, that doesn't justify forgetting all the good business he did with very little money (comparatively).

 

The idea that some of these wouldn't be getting shipped out by Rafa is a silly one too. Saying "Roy can see that El Zhar is shit, why couldn't Rafa" is just daft. I'd imagine he knew he was poor; every time I saw him getting five minutes at the end of games I always thought it was Rafa trying to put him in the shop window and bump his price a bit.

 

I know Paul will disagree with this, as we've had this conversation a few times, but I think my assessment is a fairer one.

 

Bang on

[Coro]

 

I know Paul will disagree with this, as we've had this conversation a few times, but I think my assessment is a fairer one.

 

It certainly is.

[MLB]

Why weren't the likes of El Zhar, Plessis, Degen and co. shipped out already then? What was Rafa waiting for? Roy seems to have had no problem making it apparent that he doesn't want them so far. Don't remember Rafa ever telling any of them they're not wanted.

[Dirk]

I'm still not having Paul's assertion of Rafa being a disaster in the transfer market. I think that if you see what he started with and what he managed to do with £20m net a year he, for the most part, made the best of a bad situation. Bringing in four world class players that any club in the world would want (Reina, Alonso, Mascherano & Torres) and many, many more good players that he turned a good profit on to keep making cash for himself. There is some dross on the fringes of the squad and last year wasn't a good year for him, that doesn't justify forgetting all the good business he did with very little money (comparatively).

 

The idea that some of these wouldn't be getting shipped out by Rafa is a silly one too. Saying "Roy can see that El Zhar is shit, why couldn't Rafa" is just daft. I'd imagine he knew he was poor; every time I saw him getting five minutes at the end of games I always thought it was Rafa trying to put him in the shop window and bump his price a bit.

 

I know Paul will disagree with this, as we've had this conversation a few times, but I think my assessment is a fairer one.

 

 

It is.

[The Dude Abides]

Why weren't the likes of El Zhar, Plessis, Degen and co. shipped out already then?

 

Because there's been no offers for them and they were, in the end, Rafa's signings. You won't find Roy telling his rubbish signings(and there will be some) to just get out basically. It'd be an admission of failure to a degree and managers just don't play it that way. In fairness I always felt Rafa was pretty good that way, he'd recognise his mistakes early and look to get rid as quickly as possible. Keane, Josemi, Nunez, Kromkamp...sure there are more. We've not really taken any big hits either, we've managed to mostly make out money back...in terms of transfer fees anyway.

 

Overall he done okay in the transfer market, but really made a mess of the last few, whether that was in part down to him getting involved in more politicking than he maybe should have we'll never know.

[MLB]

Because there's been no offers for them and they were, in the end, Rafa's signings. You won't find Roy telling his rubbish signings(and there will be some) to just get out basically. It'd be an admission of failure to a degree and managers just don't play it that way. In fairness I always felt Rafa was pretty good that way, he'd recognise his mistakes early and look to get rid as quickly as possible. Keane, Josemi, Nunez, Kromkamp...sure there are more. We've not really taken any big hits either, we've managed to mostly make out money back...in terms of transfer fees anyway.

 

Overall he done okay in the transfer market, but really made a mess of the last few, whether that was in part down to him getting involved in more politicking than he maybe should have we'll never know.

 

 

That is a pretty confusing argument mate. On the one hand he was good at recognising his bad signings and shipping them out, but on the other hand he didn't want to get rid of his bad signings because it'd be an admission of failure? If he thought they were bad players he could easily have made it apparent that he didn't want them any more, as Hodgson has. A manager's ego should come much, much further down the list of priorities than the good of the club.

 

On the point in general though, I think Rafa had a fairly mixed record in the transfer market, as do most managers currently active in the Premiership. Ferguson and Wenger have certainly bought their share of shite. I'm not sure that they've kept them as long or given them as many first team opportunities as Rafa did, mind you.

[Stu Monty]

That is a pretty confusing argument mate. On the one hand he was good at recognising his bad signings and shipping them out, but on the other hand he didn't want to get rid of his bad signings because it'd be an admission of failure? If he thought they were bad players he could easily have made it apparent that he didn't want them any more, as Hodgson has. A manager's ego should come much, much further down the list of priorities than the good of the club.

 

On the point in general though, I think Rafa had a fairly mixed record in the transfer market, as do most managers currently active in the Premiership. Ferguson and Wenger have certainly bought their share of shite. I'm not sure that they've kept them as long or given them as many first team opportunities as Rafa did, mind you.

 

I think that's unfair mate. I think one of the things that Rafa consistently did was get rid of signings that he made himself that he thought were errors. Most managers would be keener on proving they were right and I thought Rafa was head and shoulders above what we'd had with Houllier on that score.

 

I think Rafa made some bad free signings that added nothing and he also made a few bigger errors but there were no Verons in there. When he spent decent money he got it right more than he got it wrong and I think he gets an unfair rap for being a manager who had t take a couple of gambles to try and win a title with a team with a far from title winning budget.

 

He's not perfect, he had lots of flaws, I don't think his tranfer record stands up too badly though. People should think back to the last manager who managed to bring in an average of one world class player a season (then they should think that he did it with £20m net).

[piscinin]

I think that's unfair mate. I think one of the things that Rafa consistently did was get rid of signings that he made himself that he thought were errors. Most managers would be keener on proving they were right and I thought Rafa was head and shoulders above what we'd had with Houllier on that score.

 

Last couple of seasons though that wasn't the case. I'm sure he was under pressure from a financial perspective, but for example, bringing back Voronin was the antithesis of that approach. Maybe we need to stratify his transfer strategy as pre-and-post kidney stones!

 

There was a lot of good early on, but latterly there to me anyway seemed to be a heavier hand from the accountants. Talk of squad value, balance sheet inflation, combined footballing and financial plans all point to footballing concerns being moved off-center in what was already a pretty high-risk approach anyways. Presenting that in a positive light to your average football fan?!?!? Good luck, I admire your sentiments, but foresee your failure!

Edited July 24, 2010 by piscinin

[El Rojo]

I'm still not having Paul's assertion of Rafa being a disaster in the transfer market. I think that if you see what he started with and what he managed to do with £20m net a year he, for the most part, made the best of a bad situation. Bringing in four world class players that any club in the world would want (Reina, Alonso, Mascherano & Torres) and many, many more good players that he turned a good profit on to keep making cash for himself. There is some dross on the fringes of the squad and last year wasn't a good year for him, that doesn't justify forgetting all the good business he did with very little money (comparatively).

 

The idea that some of these wouldn't be getting shipped out by Rafa is a silly one too. Saying "Roy can see that El Zhar is shit, why couldn't Rafa" is just daft. I'd imagine he knew he was poor; every time I saw him getting five minutes at the end of games I always thought it was Rafa trying to put him in the shop window and bump his price a

 

 

I agree. He's no more of a 'disaster' in the transfer market than Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho have been. I'd argue he was even more effective for long periods during his time here. Problem was he had much, much less margin for error than they did.

 

And to his eternal credit, no other big sides were looking to take a risk on Torres, Mascherano was rescued from East End obscurity and we weren't exactly challenged in competing for Alonso and Reina's signatures.

[The Dude Abides]

That is a pretty confusing argument mate. On the one hand he was good at recognising his bad signings and shipping them out, but on the other hand he didn't want to get rid of his bad signings because it'd be an admission of failure?

 

No, that's not what i was getting at. I think at any time, if there was an offer, or if Rafa felt he'd be allowed to replace the likes of Degen and Voronin, that he would have done so in a heartbeat. What he wasn't going to do though was come out and publicly tell these players to get lost, which is what you were giving Roy credit for, when really, it's easy to do when they aren't your players, your mistakes, Rafa done the same with the likes of Smicer and Danny Murphy.

[Ynwa20]

I like Roy's attitude on this one. Very matter of fact and professional about it. Good point about a reluctance to admit mistakes though. It's never affected Fergie though, has it? Shipped out Veron, Stam, Forlan, Djemba-Djemba and so on. Don't remember him actually stating that he'd got it wrong but clearly he's showing a change of heart in getting rid of them.

[lawrie]

Popular choice this - to get rid of Degen. Not too many worried about Insua, Riera, El Zhar or Plessis either. Maybe starting to get a little suspicious though when Roy says Jay is ready for the first team squad.

[loadsoftrophies]

Apparantly off to Suttgart on loan for a year with an option for them to buy. See you back here next season Philipp.

[Dan Vito Corleone]

Hopefully they'll be paying his wages. Shame they can't box off his enormous signing on fee...

[zigackly]

Hey at least he's off. I can celebrate that anyway.

 

[Brownie]

Can't say i'm happy with a loan! I'd rather keep him than loan him out, even though he is shite.

 

Okay, I changed my mind already...

[James]

I'd rather sell him, but at least this is going in the right direction.

[Wor Horse]

I'd rather sell him, but at least this is going in the right direction.

 

Shame you can't say the same for him when he's trying to play offside.

[TheHowieLama]

No, that's not what i was getting at. I think at any time, if there was an offer, or if Rafa felt he'd be allowed to replace the likes of Degen and Voronin, that he would have done so in a heartbeat. What he wasn't going to do though was come out and publicly tell these players to get lost, which is what you were giving Roy credit for, when really, it's easy to do when they aren't your players, your mistakes, Rafa done the same with the likes of Smicer and Danny Murphy.

 

But that may be part of the problem. IMO Murphy went on to play in the league effectively, and many of the "changes" Rafa brought proved just to be for the sake of doing it. Are we better at LB without Riise? Is Lucas really a better DMid than Sissoko? Bellamy, Crouch not better than what we have? I know it is hindsight but alot the "improving the squad" argument now rings hollow.