Israel - A Rant

[polymerpunkah]

2 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

I forgot to add that, I do want the slaughter of innocents to stop, which is why I support a ceasefire, and always have done, and which is why I questioned you calling a ceasefire that involves, as you put it 'all hostages released, Hamas destroyed' as 'meaningless'.

 

My support for a ceasefire, and the thousands of lives saved isn't conditional on whether or not 'Israel gets it's own way'. I just want lives saved at this point.

 

 

I was paraphrasing "Lord" Cameron who defined "sustainable cease-fire" as having those conditions (amongst others, hence the "etc".)

 

I want an immediate cease-fire.

 

Which do you want?

 

 

[Bjornebye]

The amount of people that think this started on October the 7th is terrifying. 

 

I will never wish pain on Israeli's same as I will never wish pain on anyone. When a country murders and pillages another country it will always take a few people to say fuck this let's fight back. They get labelled as terrorists. You know who the terrorists are? The IDF. The British Army. The US Army. The Russians. Constantly involved in other countries because they see value in dominating. I'll never support bombs, planes flying into buildings etc but fuck me, I understand why a lot of Middle Eastern people are pissed off. Pure GREED causes the death of innocents. Not religion, that's just an excuse. 

[Bjornebye]

Oh and to answer Bruces question. I'd take all of the Israel cabinet or whatever it is and put them in jail. I'd define proper boundaries between Israel and Palestine, get all of the Israelis who have encroached into the West Bank back into Israel and say go on, govern yourselves, we will stop bulldozing your homes if you stop firing the odd random rocket into Tel Aviv. 

 

Let Palestine be its own country. If they fuck it up so be it but they've always had a shadow of hell over them. Israel is prosperous enough. Stop the blockade and let people get on with their lives. 

[Bruce Spanner]

41 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Oh and to answer Bruces question. I'd take all of the Israel cabinet or whatever it is and put them in jail. I'd define proper boundaries between Israel and Palestine, get all of the Israelis who have encroached into the West Bank back into Israel and say go on, govern yourselves, we will stop bulldozing your homes if you stop firing the odd random rocket into Tel Aviv. 

 

Let Palestine be its own country. If they fuck it up so be it but they've always had a shadow of hell over them. Israel is prosperous enough. Stop the blockade and let people get on with their lives. 

So you’d fall into the fantasy fallacy?

 

Again, not picking holes, just pointing them out.

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

So you’d fall into the fantasy fallacy?

 

Again, not picking holes, just pointing them out.

 

What would you do? 

[skend04]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Christ, he really is one massive, massive fucking cunt. 

 

Most racists usually are. Don't think I've met a decent racist yet.

[Bjornebye]

57 minutes ago, skend04 said:

 

Most racists usually are. Don't think I've met a decent racist yet.

 

No racist is decent. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

“What’s that? Some sort of camp that displaced people can be concentrated in? Yes. This is a wonderful idea!”

[Jurgen Knows]

6 hours ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

Not necessarily. There's always the possibility that a new representative of the Palestinian people could be secular rather than Islamist, political rather than militant, democratic rather than dictatorial. 

 

If, as so many think, Israel created Hamas to further its own ends, doesn't it stand to reason that an organisation that was the complete opposite to what they created would be more effective in representing the Palestinian cause?

That secular organization is called the PLO. It has been there since the 1960s, long before Hamas ever existed. It has evolved to the current Palestinian National Authority that nobody takes seriously (in the West Bank).
 

Nothing hasn’t been tried by the Palestinians already. The only solution is equal rights, but that requires that Zionism abolishes its racist/supremacist nature.

[Jack the Sipper]

11 hours ago, polymerpunkah said:

 

 

I was paraphrasing "Lord" Cameron who defined "sustainable cease-fire" as having those conditions (amongst others, hence the "etc".)

 

I want an immediate cease-fire.

 

Which do you want?

 

 

 

I want two front teeth for Christmas, failing that I'd happily see the whole Israeli government on trial for war crimes. But it's not about what I want, it's about what might bring about a solution to the problem of people being bombed out of their homes, right now. That's the hard reality, and if them being saved means an end to Hamas and the hostages being freed, I'd take that in a fucking heart beat. I certainly wouldn't consider it meaningless.

 

I swear, I get the feeling  that some who claim to care about the innocents above all else are actually more concerned that Israel don't get a win here. A price too far for them.

 

 

[Jack the Sipper]

5 hours ago, Jurgen Knows said:

That secular organization is called the PLO. It has been there since the 1960s, long before Hamas ever existed. It has evolved to the current Palestinian National Authority that nobody takes seriously (in the West Bank).
 

Nothing hasn’t been tried by the Palestinians already. The only solution is equal rights, but that requires that Zionism abolishes its racist/supremacist nature.

 

The PLO was ousted from the Gaza Strip by what many leftists and other supporters of the Palestinian cause believe was an Israeli-created Hamas, first in the 2006 elections, then in the Battle of Gaza a year later. 

 

Do you believe that Israel helped create or fund other otherwise encourage the rise of Hamas, at the inevitable expense of the more moderate PLO? 

[Jurgen Knows]

1 hour ago, Jack the Sipper said:

 

Do you believe that Israel helped create or fund other otherwise encourage the rise of Hamas, at the inevitable expense of the more moderate PLO? 

This has already been proven.

 

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

 

 

[Bjornebye]

12 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

So you’d fall into the fantasy fallacy?

 

Again, not picking holes, just pointing them out.

Again? What would you do? 
 

also you didn’t point anything out 

[Gnasher]

 

These Israeli politicians all seem so nice.

 

 

Peter Oborne and William Dalrymple not holding back here. Need more of this imo. They need to be called out for what they are. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Spanner]

15 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Again? What would you do? 
 

also you didn’t point anything out 

No idea, that’s the point.

 

It feels utterly futile with no clear and lasting solution in sight, or even manageable compromise.

 

Pointing out the holes in the arguments being made where idealism is forefront and reality is nowhere to be seen.

[Bjornebye]

5 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

No idea, that’s the point.

 

It feels utterly futile with no clear and lasting solution in sight, or even manageable compromise.

 

Pointing out the holes in the arguments being made where idealism is forefront and reality is nowhere to be seen.

But you asked people’s opinions and now you’re picking them apart despite having no solution yourself? 
 

It’s a horrible situation but removing extremist politicians seems ideal as a start. Will it happen? Well fuck me apparently Amnesty international are anti-semites for pointing out the truth. The west (US and UK) are backing these cunts. You’re right if you’re suggesting there is no end game unless Israel has displaced all Palestinians and calls Gaza and West Bank “Israel”

 

This was never about ending Hamas. Hamas just gave them a first class ticket.  

[Jurgen Knows]

17 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

No idea, that’s the point.

 

It feels utterly futile with no clear and lasting solution in sight, or even manageable compromise.

 

Pointing out the holes in the arguments being made where idealism is forefront and reality is nowhere to be seen.

You think abolishing racist/supremacist policies is idealism?

[Jairzinho]

It's a dull answer but it mainly just depends on the US government. While they're governed by sociopaths or, in the case of Biden, a parsnip, all the other parties are really just rearranging the deckchairs.

 

If the US were led by a normal functioning human, with some other normal functioning humans in congress, the senate, and house of reps, they could threaten to pull the plug on Israel's funding while they continue to run a genocidal, fascist regime. And, regardless of any chest beating nonsense to the contrary from Netanyahu or any of the other cartoon villains in charge, it would shit them up.

 

There are small things other organisations or individuals could do. All individuals should be boycotting the country, and boycotting their products, and using any profile you have to promote this. Basically do absolutely anything you can to make them the pariah state they should be - see South Africa. The UN, the EU, and individual governments can change the relationship with the country, put forward motions, kick out their ambassadors, call for bans for their sportsmen, etc - see Russia. Some of this stuff worked, some didn't.

 

Unfortunately all politicians, be it Labour MPs calling for ceasefire just because they're scared of losing their seat, or US ones who want to continue getting their pockets filled, or that fucking gargoyle in charge of the EU, or Starmer just waiting to see which way the wind blows, are just doing what they feel is politically expedient. In an ideal world all these cunts would be swimming in a volcano, and we'd be led by some people who give a shit.

 

 

[Gnasher]

The one plus side in all this is we've now got a better chance of not finishing bottom in next year's Eurovision song contest 

[TheHowieLama]

I think there seems to be some confusion between the PLO and the PA.

The PA governs the territories.

The PLO is not one group, it is a coalition with a military wing. The Palestine Liberation Army still active. The secular PLO passed Basic Law over 20 years ago.

Pretty religious that.

[Jurgen Knows]

27 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I think there seems to be some confusion between the PLO and the PA.

The PA governs the territories.

The PLO is not one group, it is a coalition with a military wing. The Palestine Liberation Army still active. The secular PLO passed Basic Law over 20 years ago.

Pretty religious that.

The PLO has never been driven by religion. Under its umbrella for example was the PFLP, a Marxist group lead by George Habash, a Greek Orthodox Christian. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

Excellent summary this.

 

[TheHowieLama]

Interestingly the PFLP is one faction who does not support any negotiation with Israel. Also the first group to use plane hijackings as a weapon.

 

The PLO was founded as a terrorist organization - Arafat made it palatable as a political one.

[Jurgen Knows]

10 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Interestingly the PFLP is one faction who does not support any negotiation with Israel. Also the first group to use plane hijackings as a weapon.

 

The PLO was founded as a terrorist organization - Arafat made it palatable as a political one.

Our discussion was around whether the PLO was driven by religious ideology or not. It clearly was not.

 

It being labelled as a terrorist organization or a national liberation movement is a totally different debate. One could also debate that the Zionist Irgun and Hagana groups (later morphed into the IDF) were terrorist organizations, but again that would be a totally different debate to the one we were having.

[TheHowieLama]

No - it really wasn't. The statement is below. You can disagree if Basic Law (read Sharia) is religious if you like.

 

The secular PLO passed Basic Law over 20 years ago.

Pretty religious that.