Keir Starmer

[Gnasher]

49 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

When did working class voters walk away from Labour? Labour lose elections because middle England goes back to the Tories. Red wall collapse simply bolstered the numbers last time, working class voters but on Corbyn's watch, admittedly down to Brexit. But nowt to do with the likes of this clown.

 

I imagine Dave Ward of the Postal Union is talking about, amongst others, workers such as those in the NHS, Britain's biggest employer at 1.4 million staff whom most would be described as working class.

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

 

 

Anyway it's been done to death and Skends right, I should've put it in the strike thread.

[Section_31]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

I imagine Ward of the Postal Union is talking about, amongst others, workers such as those in the NHS, Britain's biggest employer at 1.4 million staff whom most would be described as working class.

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

 

 

 

 

The numbers don't stack up for me. Who is voting for the Tories then? There can't be that many old people and oligarchs. 

[Gnasher]

27 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

The numbers don't stack up for me. Who is voting for the Tories then? There can't be that many old people and oligarchs. 

 

I don't know to be honest. I've been impressed by Ward during the Posties strike and I'd imagine the statement on Chuka is a gentle warning against any present or future government ( the future is probably Labour) not to consider privatisation of the Postal service.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

The numbers don't stack up for me. Who is voting for the Tories then? There can't be that many old people and oligarchs. 

People who vote for Ladbaby. 

[Jack the Sipper]

On 24/12/2022 at 17:28, Gnasher said:

Eh I live in a country that's voted in Labour for a 100 years. I vote Labour as I live in a Lab/Tory marginal even though I'm more politically aligned to Plaid Cymru.

 

As you were.

 

 

it's perfectly possible to want a Labour victory in your own constituency or, as in your case, region, yet hope for a Labour humiliation on a national level.

 

 

On 24/12/2022 at 19:34, Gooch said:

PR would be an absolute disaster for Labour, would kill the party stone dead. It wouldn’t even be of benefit to the wider country, it wouldn’t curb the excess of the tories it would embolden them. The left can barely organise a piss up between them since they’re at each others throats every minute, surely the past 5 years or so has taught us that. What makes anyone think they’ll suddenly start working together under harder party political lines. At best you’ll get a sterile paralysis within government where absolutely fuck all gets done. Hopefully it never sees the light of day.

 

It would. You only need to look at comments above by Gnasher the staunch Labour voter, where he alludes to voting for Plaid Cymru if we had PR, yet mentions that the leader of the Labour party isn't in favour of it. 

[Jack the Sipper]

15 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

I imagine Dave Ward of the Postal Union is talking about, amongst others, workers such as those in the NHS, Britain's biggest employer at 1.4 million staff whom most would be described as working class.

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

 

 

Anyway it's been done to death and Skends right, I should've put it in the strike thread.

 

You still flogging that dead horse!

 

I note that, instead of the Nursing Notes article and poll results that you usually stick up, you've put up that tribune response to it - that deeply disingenuous response that seeks to argue that Labour lost support among nurses because it wasn't left wing enough, yet doesn't begin to address the FACT that the poll it refers to shows nurses turning to the Tories! Does tribune believe the Tories were more left-wing than Labour post Corbyn? Do you think that poll of nurses is still valid now?

 

 

[Bjornebye]

This current Labour Party is full of cunts. Plenty will still vote for them but the decent ones will hold their nose. FACT. 

[Moo]

On 24/12/2022 at 19:34, Gooch said:

PR would be an absolute disaster for Labour, would kill the party stone dead. It wouldn’t even be of benefit to the wider country, it wouldn’t curb the excess of the tories it would embolden them. The left can barely organise a piss up between them since they’re at each others throats every minute, surely the past 5 years or so has taught us that. What makes anyone think they’ll suddenly start working together under harder party political lines. At best you’ll get a sterile paralysis within government where absolutely fuck all gets done. Hopefully it never sees the light of day.

 

I'm not sure how it would embolden the Tories?  It may well destroy Labour (I'm not convinced) but for the Tories how can they be more emboldened by having less of the pie?

[Jack the Sipper]

To answer the question as to why old Labour voters have gone Tory, I think it's fundamentally down to working people believing, rightly or not, that Labour has become consumed with sectional, marginal interests and progressive politics (much of which I agree with BTW), and less interested in the bread and butter issues that they face on a daily basis. Brexit was a manifestion of that frustration. 

 

There's a big disconnect in many working class voters minds between what they see as (at best) patronising middle class Londoners telling them that what they need is 'justice for all', and 'equality for everyone' and the everyday issues they face in their locality, which they've been persuaded is down to 'uncontrolled immigration' and 'interfering state bureaucracy'.

 

The reaction among the left and on here when Starmer instructed the conference to sing the National Anthem showed how out of touch many socialists are with the working class, who are in large part socially conservative and monarchists (though I am neither), and how politically naïve they are, to object to a nod to these people, these voters, only weeks after the Queen had died.

[Bjornebye]

Racism plays a big part. Biffs 

[Arniepie]

12 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

To answer the question as to why old Labour voters have gone Tory, I think it's fundamentally down to working people believing, rightly or not, that Labour has become consumed with sectional, marginal interests and progressive politics (much of which I agree with BTW), and less interested in the bread and butter issues that they face on a daily basis. Brexit was a manifestion of that frustration. 

 

There's a big disconnect in many working class voters minds between what they see as (at best) patronising middle class Londoners telling them that what they need is 'justice for all', and 'equality for everyone' and the everyday issues they face in their locality, which they've been persuaded is down to 'uncontrolled immigration' and 'interfering state bureaucracy'.

 

The reaction among the left and on here when Starmer instructed the conference to sing the National Anthem showed how out of touch many socialists are with the working class, who are in large part socially conservative and monarchists (though I am neither), and how politically naïve they are, to object to a nod to these people, these voters, only weeks after the Queen had died.

one of the biggest problems labour face, is that the North is quite fractured.

You have got big cities like manchester and Liverpool who were fully on board with Corbyns vision and then you have got like you said,the more socially conservative places, like all those small towns in lancashire and the North east, who are more concerned with issues like immigration. 

Im always not sure about the out of touch point. Personally I though the national anthem stuff was an attempt to claw back those red wall fuckwits. With everyone going on, personally I feel paying homage to those parasites,is well down the list of priorities but starmer knows he can take cities like Liverpool for granted. 

[sir roger]

1 hour ago, Jack the Sipper said:

To answer the question as to why old Labour voters have gone Tory, I think it's fundamentally down to working people believing, rightly or not, that Labour has become consumed with sectional, marginal interests and progressive politics (much of which I agree with BTW), and less interested in the bread and butter issues that they face on a daily basis. Brexit was a manifestion of that frustration. 

 

 

 

There was analysis of ex-Labour voters backing the Tories in 2019, and the 'marginal' stuff barely registered. From memory it was Immigration, Economy ( ho ho ) and Corbyn's character. It appears to only be Labour centrists and right-wingers who are obsessed by nonentities like Owen Jones and that girl from Novara.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, Jack the Sipper said:

To answer the question as to why old Labour voters have gone Tory, I think it's fundamentally down to working people believing, rightly or not, that Labour has become consumed with sectional, marginal interests and progressive politics (much of which I agree with BTW), and less interested in the bread and butter issues that they face on a daily basis. Brexit was a manifestion of that frustration. 

 

There's a big disconnect in many working class voters minds between what they see as (at best) patronising middle class Londoners telling them that what they need is 'justice for all', and 'equality for everyone' and the everyday issues they face in their locality, which they've been persuaded is down to 'uncontrolled immigration' and 'interfering state bureaucracy'.

 

The reaction among the left and on here when Starmer instructed the conference to sing the National Anthem showed how out of touch many socialists are with the working class, who are in large part socially conservative and monarchists (though I am neither), and how politically naïve they are, to object to a nod to these people, these voters, only weeks after the Queen had died.

 

Yeah, the left in general have become very disconnected with the working class. They're so out of touch. We saw that with the previous regime. From the way they conducted conference to the way their supporters shouted down and belittled life-long Labour supporters on the door step. Brexit should have been a huge slap in the face, and they should have gone away, changed from the old guard to the new, renewed the packaging of their ideas, and come back fresh. At the moment, it's everyone else's fault for not being as pure as them. Good luck with that. 

[Arniepie]

15 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

Yeah, the left in general have become very disconnected with the working class. They're so out of touch. We saw that with the previous regime. From the way they conducted conference to the way their supporters shouted down and belittled life-long Labour supporters on the door step. Brexit should have been a huge slap in the face, and they should have gone away, changed from the old guard to the new, renewed the packaging of their ideas, and come back fresh. At the moment, it's everyone else's fault for not being as pure as them. Good luck with that. 

that doesnt really explain why liverpool and manchester, both heavily backed corbyn,and yet other working class northern towns and cities,gave that fat lying cunt a huge majority?

[Jairzinho]

Just now, Arniepie said:

that doesnt really explain why liverpool and manchester, both heavily backed corbyn,and yet other working class northern towns and cities,gave that fat lying cunt a huge majority?

 

No. And in fact, it was the centre's Brexit policy that was most disastrous for Labour (as correct as it was).

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

that doesnt really explain why liverpool and manchester, both heavily backed corbyn,and yet other working class northern towns and cities,gave that fat lying cunt a huge majority?

 

It wasn't supposed to explain that? 

[Arniepie]

11 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

It wasn't supposed to explain that? 

but you said the left had been disconnected from the working class?

surely that would only apply to the working class who deserted them in 2019?

though in fairness that process probally began under new labour. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

17 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

but you said the left had been disconnected from the working class?

surely that would only apply to the working class who deserted them in 2019?

though in fairness that process probally began under new labour. 

 

It's a general comment on the left, not Labour or elections. 

[Section_31]

3 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

This current Labour Party is full of cunts. Plenty will still vote for them but the decent ones will hold their nose. FACT. 

 

Corbyn's Labour was full of cunts too, they were just better at disguising it. Get you ostracised from a CLP because they don't like your trainers then share a solidarity post on Facebook with the people's front of Mozambique.

[Mudface]

5 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Corbyn's Labour was full of cunts too, they were just better at disguising it. Get you ostracised from a CLP because they don't like your trainers then share a solidarity post on Facebook with the people's front of Mozambique.

 

To be fair, if you've got worse trainers than the PFM, then you deserve ostracising.

[Duff Man]

Polling consistently showed that Labour policies were popular with voters (and still are).

[Duff Man]

27 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Corbyn's Labour was full of cunts too, they were just better at disguising it. Get you ostracised from a CLP because they don't like your trainers then share a solidarity post on Facebook with the people's front of Mozambique.

Never saw anything like that between 2015 and 2019. Neither did my dad, who's been heavily involved in campaigning for over 40 years. In fact the only remark he ever made about the Corbyn years was that there were a lot more younger folk at his local CLP.

 

Regardless, you're comparing people with power (the people running the party) behaving terribly, and members of a particular CLP. So, not really very useful.

[Arniepie]

9 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Polling consistently showed that Labour policies were popular with voters (and still are).

which kind of shows what a fucking basket case of a country this is,when the party with the best policies,gets wiped out.

[Duff Man]

45 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

which kind of shows what a fucking basket case of a country this is,when the party with the best policies,gets wiped out.

Well indeed. And maybe it'd be worth considering why things that are very popular with the electorate, such as more public ownership of utilities, won't be on offer from any of the major parties. And then from there consider whose interests are actually being served by these total fucking arseholes.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Single issue polling across the entire country isn't particularly useful, especially when the question is simplistic, when looking to win an election. Blair spoke about this in an interview recently. I suspect some won't want to listen to it because they don't like him or his politics, but if we can't learn from literally the only person to have won an election for Labour in almost half a century then we might as well pack up and go home. 

 

EDIT: From 27:09 and lasts for three or so minutes.