Venezuela

[Strontium]

15 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Don't quite understand the government reaction to humanitarian aid, why close the borders and actively prevent it, even if, as they say, it is not needed? What harm can come from allowing aid into the country? Is it not more politically damaging if you actively stop people from delivering, I presume, free food and other supplies to the people who need it, than allow it to be distributed to people who, as they say, don't need it?

 

Isn't the confrontation over this and that stupid concert the worst thing you can do?

 

Closing borders is usually done to keep people in, not to keep them out.

[moof]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

In this analysis, John Pilger looks back over the Chavez years in Venezuela, including his own travels with Hugo Chavez, and the current US and European campaign to overthrow Nicolas Maduro in a 'coup by media' and to return Latin America to the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

Travelling with Hugo Chavez, I soon understood the threat of Venezuela. At a farming co-operative in Lara state, people waited patiently and with good humour in the heat. Jugs of water and melon juice were passed around. A guitar was played; a woman, Katarina, stood and sang with a husky contralto.

 

"What did her words say?" I asked.

 

"That we are proud," was the reply.

 

The applause for her merged with the arrival of Chavez. Under one arm he carried a satchel bursting with books.  He wore his big red shirt and greeted people by name, stopping to listen. What struck me was his capacity to listen.

 

But now he read. For almost two hours he read into the microphone from the stack of books beside him: Orwell, Dickens, Tolstoy, Zola, Hemingway, Chomsky, Neruda: a page here, a line or two there. People clapped and whistled as he moved from author to author.

 

Then farmers took the microphone and told him what they knew, and what they needed; one ancient face, carved it seemed from a nearby banyan, made a long, critical speech on the subject of irrigation; Chavez took notes.

Wine is grown here, a dark Syrah type grape. "John, John, come up here," said El Presidente, having watched me fall asleep in the heat and the depths of Oliver Twist.

 

"He likes red wine," Chavez told the cheering, whistling audience, and presented me with a bottle of "vino de la gente". My few words in bad Spanish brought whistles and laughter.

 

Watching Chavez with la gente made sense of a man who promised, on coming to power, that his every move would be subject to the will of the people.  In eight years, Chavez won eight elections and referendums: a world record. He was electorally the most popular head of state in the Western Hemisphere, probably in the world.

Every major chavista reform was voted on, notably a new constitution of which 71 per cent of the people approved each of the 396 articles that enshrined unheard of freedoms, such as Article 123, which for the first time recognised the human rights of mixed-race and black people, of whom Chavez was one.

 

One of his tutorials on the road quoted a feminist writer: "Love and solidarity are the same." His audiences understood this well and expressed themselves with dignity, seldom with deference. Ordinary people regarded Chavez and his government as their first champions: as theirs.

 

This was especially true of the indigenous, mestizos and Afro-Venezuelans, who had been held in historic contempt by Chavez's immediate predecessors and by those who today live far from the  barrios, in the mansions and penthouses of East Caracas, who commute to Miami where their banks are and who regard themselves as "white". They are the powerful core of what the media calls "the opposition".

 

When I met this class, in suburbs called Country Club, in homes appointed with low chandeliers and bad portraits, I recognised them. They could be white South Africans, the petite bourgeoisie of Constantia and Sandton, pillars of the cruelties of apartheid.

 

Cartoonists in the Venezuelan press, most of which are owned by an oligarchy and oppose the government, portrayed Chavez as an ape. A radio host referred to "the monkey". In the private universities, the verbal currency of the children of the well-off is often racist abuse of those whose shacks are just visible through the pollution.

Although identity politics are all the rage in the pages of liberal newspapers in the West, race and class are two words almost never uttered in the mendacious "coverage" of Washington's latest, most naked attempt to grab the world's greatest source of oil and reclaim its "backyard".

 

For all the chavistas' faults -- such as allowing the Venezuelan economy to become hostage to the fortunes of oil and never seriously challenging big capital and corruption - they brought social justice and pride to millions of people and they did it with unprecedented democracy.

 

"Of the 92 elections that we've monitored," said former President Jimmy Carter, whose Carter Centre is a respected monitor of elections around the world, "I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." By way of contrast, said Carter, the US election system, with its emphasis on campaign money, "is one of the worst".

 

In extending the franchise to a parallel people's state of communal authority, based in the poorest barrios, Chavez described Venezuelan democracy as "our version of Rousseau's idea of popular sovereignty".

 

In Barrio La Linea, seated in her tiny kitchen, Beatrice Balazo told me her children were the first generation of the poor to attend a full day's school and be given a hot meal and to learn music, art and dance. "I have seen their confidence blossom like flowers," she said.

 

In Barrio La Vega, I listened to a nurse, Mariella Machado, a black woman of 45 with a wicked laugh, address an urban land council on subjects ranging from homelessness to illegal war. That day, they were launching Mision Madres de Barrio, a programme aimed at poverty among single mothers. Under the constitution, women have the right to be paid as carers, and can borrow from a special women's bank. Now the poorest housewives get the equivalent of $200 a month.

 

In a room lit by a single fluorescent tube, I met Ana Lucia Ferandez, aged 86, and Mavis Mendez, aged 95. A mere 33-year-old, Sonia Alvarez, had come with her two children. Once, none of them could read and write; now they were studying mathematics. For the first time in its history, Venezuela has almost 100 per cent literacy.

 

This is the work of Mision Robinson, which was designed for adults and teenagers previously denied an education because of poverty. Mision Ribas gives everyone the opportunity of a secondary education, called a bachillerato.(The names Robinson and Ribas refer to Venezuelan independence leaders from the 19th century).

 

In her 95 years, Mavis Mendez had seen a parade of governments, mostly vassals of Washington, preside over the theft of billions of dollars in oil spoils, much of it flown to Miami. "We didn't matter in a human sense," she told me. "We lived and died without real education and running water, and food we couldn't afford. When we fell ill, the weakest died. Now I can read and write my name and so much more; and whatever the rich and the media say, we have planted the seeds of true democracy and I have the joy of seeing it happen."

 

In 2002, during a Washington-backed coup, Mavis's sons and daughters and grandchildren and great-grandchildren joined hundreds of thousands who swept down from the barrios on the hillsides and demanded the army remained loyal to Chavez.

 

"The people rescued me," Chavez told me. "They did it with the media against me, preventing even the basic facts of what happened. For popular democracy in heroic action, I suggest you look no further."

 

Since Chavez's death in 2013, his successor Nicolas Maduro has shed his derisory label in the Western press as a "former bus driver" and become Saddam Hussein incarnate. His media abuse is ridiculous. On his watch, the slide in the price of oil has caused hyper inflation and played havoc with prices in a society that imports almost all its food; yet, as the journalist and film-maker Pablo Navarrete reported this week, Venezuela is not the catastrophe it has been painted. "There is food everywhere," he wrote. "I have filmed lots of videos of food in markets [all over Caracas] ... it's Friday night and the restaurants are full."

 

In 2018, Maduro was re-elected President. A section of the opposition boycotted the election, a tactic tried against Chavez. The boycott failed: 9,389,056 people voted; sixteen parties participated and six candidates stood for the presidency. Maduro won 6,248,864 votes, or 67.84 per cent.

 

On election day, I spoke to one of the 150 foreign election observers. "It was entirely fair," he said. "There was no fraud; none of the lurid media claims stood up. Zero. Amazing really."

 

Like a page from Alice's tea party, the Trump administration has presented Juan Guaido, a pop-up creation of the CIA-front National Endowment for Democracy, as the "legitimate President of Venezuela". Unheard of by 81 per cent of the Venezuelan people, according to The Nation, Guaido has been elected by no one.

 

Maduro is "illegitimate", says Trump (who won the US presidency with three million fewer votes than his opponent), a "dictator", says demonstrably unhinged vice president Mike Pence and an oil trophy-in-waiting, says "national security" adviser John Bolton (who when I interviewed him in 2003 said, "Hey, are you a communist, maybe even Labour?").

 

As his "special envoy to Venezuela" (coup master), Trump has appointed a convicted felon, Elliot Abrams, whose intrigues in the service of Presidents Reagan and George W. Bush helped produce the Iran-Contra scandal in the 1980s and plunge central America into years of blood-soaked misery.

 

Putting Lewis Carroll aside, these  "crazies" belong in newsreels from the 1930s. And yet their lies about Venezuela have been taken up with enthusiasm by those paid to keep the record straight.

 

On Channel 4 News, Jon Snow bellowed at the Labour MP Chris Williamson, "Look, you and Mr Corbyn are in a very nasty corner [on Venezuela]!" When Williamson tried to explain why threatening a sovereign country was wrong, Snow cut him off. "You've had a good go!"

 

In 2006, Channel 4 News effectively accused Chavez of plotting to make nuclear weapons with Iran: a fantasy. The then Washington correspondent, Jonathan Rugman, allowed a war criminal, Donald Rumsfeld, to liken Chavez to Hitler, unchallenged.

 

Researchers at the University of the West of England studied the BBC's reporting of Venezuela over a ten-year period. They looked at 304 reports and found that only three of these referred to any of the positive policies of the government. For the BBC, Venezuela's democratic record, human rights legislation, food programmes, healthcare initiatives and poverty reduction did not happen.  The greatest literacy programme in human history did not happen, just as the millions who march in support of Maduro and in memory of Chavez, do not exist.

 

When asked why she filmed only an opposition march, the BBC reporter Orla Guerin tweeted that it was "too difficult" to be on two marches in one day.

 

A war has been declared on Venezuela, of which the truth is "too difficult" to report.

 

It is too difficult to report the collapse of oil prices since 2014 as largely the result of criminal machinations by Wall Street. It is too difficult to report the blocking of Venezuela's access to the US-dominated international financial system as sabotage. It is too difficult to report Washington's "sanctions" against Venezuela, which have caused the loss of at least $6billion in Venezuela's revenue since 2017, including  $2billion worth of imported medicines, as illegal, or the Bank of England's refusal to return Venezuela's gold reserves as an act of piracy.

 

The former United Nations Rapporteur, Alfred de Zayas, has likened this to a "medieval siege" designed "to bring countries to their knees". It is a criminal assault, he says. It is similar to that faced by Salvador Allende in 1970 when President Richard Nixon and his equivalent of John Bolton, Henry Kissinger, set out to "make the economy [of Chile] scream". The long dark night of Pinochet followed.

 

The Guardian correspondent, Tom Phillips, has tweeted a picture of himself in a cap on which the words in Spanish mean in local slang: "Make Venezuela fucking cool again." The reporter as clown may be the final stage of much of mainstream journalism's degeneration.

 

Should the CIA stooge Guaido and his white supremacists grab power, it will be the 68th overthrow of a sovereign government by the United States, most of them democracies. A fire sale of Venezuela's utilities and mineral wealth will surely follow, along with the theft of the country's oil, as outlined by John Bolton.

 

Under the last Washington-controlled government in Caracas, poverty reached historic proportions. There was no healthcare for those could not pay. There was no universal education; Mavis Mendez, and millions like her, could not read or write. How cool is that, Tom?

Thanks for taking the time to post that, mate

[SasaS]

4 hours ago, SasaS said:

Don't quite understand the government reaction to humanitarian aid, why close the borders and actively prevent it, even if, as they say, it is not needed? What harm can come from allowing aid into the country? Is it not more politically damaging if you actively stop people from delivering, I presume, free food and other supplies to the people who need it, than allow it to be distributed to people who, as they say, don't need it?

 

Isn't the confrontation over this and that stupid concert the worst thing you can do?

 

And now people are getting killed over this.

[Red Phoenix]

The state of this :

 

 

They should take his account offline really and tell him it'll only come back up if he deletes that. Horrible fucking bastard.

[polymerpunkah]

Quote

The former United Nations Rapporteur, Alfred de Zayas, has likened this to a "medieval siege"

It does look like a siege. Only instead of trebuchets and tunnelling, it's aid convoys.

 

Maybe they need to hide the aid in a giant wooden rabbit?

[Red Phoenix]

Zero fucks given :

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

You couldn't get much more blatant than what Rubio is doing now, posting before and after images of Gaddafi on his twitter (i decided not to post it but it can be seen on his account). Loads of people have reported the shit he's been doing but he's a US politician busy with regime change so twitter rules on threats don't count apparently. They're just openly psychopathic now.

 

Even Bernie has caved in, can't imagine this has gone down too well with some of those inside his campaign. There's 3 times the amount of people that responded (15k) to this than there are people that shared it, tons of arguing in there and people wondering what the fuck he's doing :

 

 

 

[Jose Jones]

23 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

You couldn't get much more blatant than what Rubio is doing now, posting before and after images of Gaddafi on his twitter (i decided not to post it but it can be seen on his account). Loads of people have reported the shit he's been doing but he's a US politician busy with regime change so twitter rules on threats don't count apparently. They're just openly psychopathic now.

 

Even Bernie has caved in, can't imagine this has gone down too well with some of those inside his campaign. There's 3 times the amount of people that responded (15k) to this than there are people that shared it, tons of arguing in there and people wondering what the fuck he's doing :

 

 

 

I think it's quite possible to think that the Maduro government is a shit bunch of corrupt, power hungry, repressive shills who give socialism a bad name.

AND, that the US has been peddling bullshit to force regime change and is a generally mendacious, malign influence in Venezuela.

 

Bernie is just demonstrating the capacity for intelligent thought.

[Strontium]

Bernie has "caved in" by requesting that Venezuela cease violence against its own people. Mind-boggling stuff from RP.

[Red Phoenix]

19 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

Bernie has "caved in" by requesting that Venezuela cease violence against its own people. Mind-boggling stuff from RP.

 

He's followed the rest of the warmongering coup idiots by requesting US aid enters the country. He's been fighting against US bullshit for decades, he knows something is off yet he still tweets that. Of course you ignore the aid bit and completely twist the post, but that's expected. I know you love socialism so much so I'll leave it.

 

26 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Bernie is just demonstrating the capacity for intelligent thought.

 

He's not being very intelligent though because aid has been entering Venezuela from other countries and he should know that. They're just keeping out the US aid because it's widely believed that's it's just something that's part of a regime change attempt.

 

Quote

“We will not be participating in what is, for us, not humanitarian aid,” stated Colombia’s International Red Cross (ICRC) spokesperson, Christoph Harnisch.

 

Quote

"Humanitarian action needs to be independent of political, military or other objectives," UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York last Wednesday.

 

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14316

 

Some mind-boggling stuff from the UN and Red Cross.

 

Almost all US dems are never Trump until it's regime change time. Ain't that a fucking surprise.

[Strontium]

Just now, Red Phoenix said:

He's followed the rest of the warmongering coup idiots by requesting US aid enters the country.

 

Waging war by feeding the hungry. A new tactic, to be sure.

[TheHowieLama]

This is referring to three shipments into Colombia -- they had blocked off the border with Brazil days ago -- that was not the shipments from the US 

[Red Phoenix]

33 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

This is referring to three shipments into Colombia -- they had blocked off the border with Brazil days ago -- that was not the shipments from the US 

 

Yeah they're rejecting the US aid because the US are trying to stage a coup. They're obviously doing it for some other reason than helping the poor people of Venezuela becuase they don't give a fuck about poor people there, they want Maduro out and oil.

 

If they cared they'd lift the sanctions.

[TheHowieLama]

Or conversely if Maduro gave a single fuck about any Venezuelan but himself, his family and his cronies, the aid coming in from Brazil would have already been distributed. Pretty sure they are not going without in the Presidential Palace. They are rejecting aid regardless of origin.

 

[Red Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Or conversely if Maduro gave a single fuck about any Venezuelan but himself, his family and his cronies, the aide coming in from Brazil would have already been distributed. Pretty sure they are not going without.

 

Yeah I don't recall saying Maduro was some type of saint or that he isn't corrupt. I'm mainly opposing another US regime change.

 

[Red Phoenix]

Things haven't worked out too well in the past, but the US plans for Venezuela will be different, honest.

 

https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

[TheHowieLama]

13 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Things haven't worked out too well in the past, but the US plans for Venezuela will be different, honest.

 

https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list

Without disagreeing with the sentiment as a whole - the master list apparently has the US down for a victory already in Venezuela back in 2002 - basically a few years into the glory days of Chavez.

[Red Phoenix]

12 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Without disagreeing with the sentiment as a whole - the master list apparently has the US down for a victory already in Venezuela back in 2002 - basically a few years into the glory days of Chavez.

Yeah not sure why that is, maybe he's thinking that it technically worked, even if it only lasted a couple of days?

 

There's a bit here on recent aid into Venezuela too from a former UN worker :

 

 

Quote

I think that the US should turn over all the humanitarian assistance and medical supplies it has flown into Colombia and have them distributed as soon as possible with the help of the United Nations and other neutral organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Another item of information that is sorely missing from the mainstream media is the delivery last week of 933 tons of food and medicines at port La Guaira — coming from China, Cuba, India, Turkey etc.  https://www.ghm.com.ve/llegaron-al-pais-933-toneladas-de-medicinas/

https://www.uniradioinforma.com/noticias/internacional/556699/venezuela-recibe-933-toneladas-de-medicinas-y-materiales-medicos.html

Moreover an additional 300 tons of medicines and medical supplies provided by Russia arrived by air.

https://www.dw.com/es/maduro-anuncia-arribo-de-300-toneladas-de-ayuda-humanitaria-de-rusia/a-47576323

As I know from my conversations with Venezuelan ministers during my visit in 2017 and the recent conversations I have had with Venezuelan Ambassador to the UN in Geneva Jorge Valero —

Venezuela has always welcomed and repeatedly asked for assistance from neutral and friendly governments so as to overcome the adverse human rights impacts of the financial blockade and the sanctions. Such help should be offered in good faith, without strings attached.

 

 

https://dezayasalfred.wordpress.com/2019/02/23/open-letter-to-the-united-nations-secretary-general-antonio-guterres-and-to-the-high-commissioner-for-human-rights-michelle-bachelet/amp/

 

[TheHowieLama]

18 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's a bit here on recent aid into Venezuela too from a former UN worker :

 

 

 

Can you read Spanish? I know you are interested but it seems you may employ a fairly biased shotgun approach at research.

These were deliveries of medical supply contracts proudly paid for by Venezuela, so they are not aid, per se.

Right?

 

And they are able to buy from any country that wants them as a trading partner - you can read that as a handful of countries and Russia. Turns out Socialists may have an interest in oil reserves as well.

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Can you read Spanish? I know you are interested but it seems you may employ a fairly biased shotgun approach at research.

These were deliveries of medical supply contracts proudly paid for by Venezuela, so they are not aid, per se.

Right?

 

And they are able to buy from any country that wants them as a trading partner - you can read that as a handful of countries and Russia. Turns out Socialists may have an interest in oil reserves as well.

 

Not sure exactly how it's worked out.

 

If you check here it says that it came from Cuba, China, Russia, Palestine, Turkey and others, and that some was paid for and some part of an agreement : https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Venezuela-Receives-933-Tons-of-Medical-Aid-From-Allies-Abroad-20190214-0025.html

 

Here it says it was all paid for : https://www.france24.com/en/20190217-venezuelas-guaido-calls-nationwide-protests-allow-us-aid-enter-USA

 

I think the main point is that supplies are still entering the country and it's not as cut off as a lot of western media is making it out.

[TheHowieLama]

19 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

If you check here it says that the aid came from Cuba, China, Russia, Palestine, Turkey and others, and that some was paid for and some part of an agreement. So it looks like it's a mixture of those two and actual aid :

 

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Venezuela-Receives-933-Tons-of-Medical-Aid-From-Allies-Abroad-20190214-0025.html

You are making an assumption which I don't think is correct. The original articles (BTW all of these are essentially the same article, all posted on the same day, same wording) references "the agreement" as well as the amounts delivered throughout 2018 as being part of a routine - "the agreement" is more likely a paid supply contract. In the words of Maduro himself "pagado con dignidad."

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

17 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

You are making an assumption which I don't think is correct. The original articles (BTW all of these are essentially the same article, all posted on the same day, same wording) references "the agreement" as well as the amounts delivered throughout 2018 as being part of a routine - "the agreement" is more likely a paid contract. In the words of Maduro himself "pagado con dignidad."

 

Yeah I've said aid a couple of times, and have just edited this because I said I was wrong but I'm not even sure now. Are we just arguing semantics here? Does the aid have to be free to count? I still think the main point is that supplies are entering the country and it's not as bad as a lot of the western media are saying. If the US are so bothered they'd lift the sanctions and hand over their aid to the Red Cross/UN/a country they'll accept it from too, but it looks like they're after creating a drama on the border, their guy taking over, oil, and getting the country in debt with a huge IMF loan, and so on.

 

Are we really arguing/debating/whatever here as if it's Maduro at fault and the US are just innocently trying to get aid to poor people? Because it's clearly not the case.

[TheHowieLama]

16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

I still think the main point is that supplies are entering the country and it's not as bad as a lot of the western media are saying. 

Well, it's either aid or it's not. Selling/buying stuff does not meet the definition for me. Thats business.

I think it is business as usual - same stuff coming in for the last few years, paid in the same way, according to those reports. If you believe that the needs of Venezuelans have been and are being met then there is no point to the US aid anyway -- they are doing fine. So, are they doing fine?

 

 

In the bigger picture - are you opposed to all interventionism or just the US? 

 

As a socialist (which I must assume you are) do you have any problems with a Presidential Palace in a country where the average wage cannot sustain a family?

[Red Phoenix]

22 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Well, it's either aid or it's not. Selling/buying stuff does not meet the definition for me. Thats business.

I think it is business as usual - same stuff coming in for the last few years, paid in the same way, according to those reports. If you believe that the needs of Venezuelans have been and are being met then there is no point to the US aid anyway -- they are doing fine. So, are they doing fine?

 

 

In the bigger picture - are you opposed to all interventionism or just the US? 

 

As a socialist (which I must assume you are) do you have any problems with a Presidential Palace in a country where the average wage cannot sustain a family?

 

Yeah aid/business, I get what you mean. I'm wrong on how I posted that if it's just been paid for, that's fine. Are Venezuelans all doing fine? Nope. Are we all doing fine in the UK? Nope. US? Nope. Maybe we should ask for someone to ram aid through our borders and hope for military intervention and a coup? If Venezuela are being controlled by a right wing government and loads of people are poor and lacking but business is good for the US that's fine, but if it's a left wing government that nationalizes oil it's instantly a big problem.

 

I'm opposed to any interventionism if it's done in the same way the US does it. As in, doing it to serve a few greedy scum and making things worse for the country as a whole and killing a load of people in the process. Why am I usually going on about the US? Because it's usually the US that does it. They're consistently the worst on the planet for it.

 

And yeah I have a problem with your last part about a presidential palace/wages. Not much different to the US or UK though where the average wage doesn't do much better either. That's partly why Corbyn and Sanders are so popular.

 

Do you have any issues with what the US is doing here given their record, or do you think the main focus should be on Maduro? Because he and/or socialism does seem to be your main focus. And do you think it's mostly his doing the current state of the country, or socialism, or do you accept that US sanctions have made things a lot worse?

 

I side with wanting countries the US target not being destroyed by them, I don't think that's the wrong side to be on. If it's really about the US caring for people being oppressed, countries like Israel and Saudi Arabia would be in serious trouble. I wonder why we're not worrying about those people?

 

Iran like Venezuela, have a lot of oil and it's nationalized. Same old shit. So no, Maduro isn't my main concern, not by far.

[TheHowieLama]

Good post -- if I hadn't of burned all my rep on chrisbonnies new kid you would be green , will come back to rectify tomorrow.