Go fuck yourselves FSG

[No2]

3 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

To be honest I've never really understood why people think they shouldn't use the furlough scheme. It's a short term help when cashflow is bad, it's effectively a positive tax, like a personal tax free allowance is. The club pay tax, the employees pay massive amounts of tax - in fact if you include employees tax it's probably one of the highest tax paying industries in the country.  I really don't get why we think football should use some type of honour system when we're pissing billions up the wall to every other industry and to Tory party mates. It's not like the club planned to only pay the 80% government, everyone would have stayed on 100% wages. Anything that helps secure jobs is good. Arsenal have already made layoffs and might not have had they used the furlough scheme. I get it created bad PR, but we should have just stayed to the back of the queue in telling the world what we were doing. 

 

 

 

My kids are starting back football, swimming and gymnastics over the next couple of weeks. We had paid in advance for all 3 and didn't get half way through any of them before lock down. Fortunately we can afford to pay again for the next period, there will be discounts and rebates involved in all 3 but that is only possible because everyone worked together. If every parent demanded repayment (which they would be entitled too) we would have no swimming pool to get lessons in, the gymnastics club would fold instantly and the football would be in serious trouble for the next few years.

 

There will be people who were affected badly that did need refunds, those refunds were only available because those that didn't "need" them didn't request them. 

 

Liverpool Football Club have made extraordinary profits over the last 3 years, they didn't need to do it and if they did they wouldn't have backed down so quickly. The very definition of a tory is claiming this when you don't need to. It was disgusting then and it's still disgusting now.

[Barrington Womble]

27 minutes ago, No2 said:

 

My kids are starting back football, swimming and gymnastics over the next couple of weeks. We had paid in advance for all 3 and didn't get half way through any of them before lock down. Fortunately we can afford to pay again for the next period, there will be discounts and rebates involved in all 3 but that is only possible because everyone worked together. If every parent demanded repayment (which they would be entitled too) we would have no swimming pool to get lessons in, the gymnastics club would fold instantly and the football would be in serious trouble for the next few years.

 

There will be people who were affected badly that did need refunds, those refunds were only available because those that didn't "need" them didn't request them. 

 

Liverpool Football Club have made extraordinary profits over the last 3 years, they didn't need to do it and if they did they wouldn't have backed down so quickly. The very definition of a tory is claiming this when you don't need to. It was disgusting then and it's still disgusting now.

I'm not sure I follow any of that to be honest as none of it is relevant to the job retention scheme. And if you say it's Tory behaviour, is every loophole they will exploit not to pay tax just that? We literally do it as a club every single day. For instance we've paid little corporation tax as a club over the last couple of years because of losses in previous years. That's the way the tax system works, you pay what you have to and you don't pay what you don't, otherwise that's called charity. All furlough was/is is an extension of the tax system. If you send people home as a consequence of covid, here's a tax rebate to help continue keeping them employed. As I say, there's people at arsenal out of work now which probably wouldn't have happened or at least happened yet had arsenal taken advantage of furlough. My view here is we use every tax loophole we can already, why should they not use this one, especially if it increases the chances of maintaining job levels further down the line? That's exactly what furlough is there for, to maintain the economy and jobs in a time of decreased cash flow. 

 

Do you take your tax free allowance off the government? I do. I could probably afford to give it up too, but that is literally not how the tax system works. The rules get set and you pay your taxes. If I want to give to charity, I do at my own choice. In this case there was a rebate for anyone who furloughed staff to ensure at least 80% of 2500 per month was paid, LFC could have furloughed and not topped the money up, but they did say they'd top it up because they could afford to do so. Tory behaviour would have been to furlough and to leave staff short of money. The club never intended to do this and taking JRS Money for staff furloughed is what every company did everywhere in that situation and exactly what it was created for. The implications of covid will run beyond this 6 months of government help, so keeping people in jobs now, even if paid for by the government is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. 

 

Personally, I think the club could and should have used it to do a good thing. If I had been in charge of LFC, I'd have helped organise help for those who in need, such as shopping for the vulnerable. Offered all staff the opportunity to come to work to help and where they do, put the equivalent of the furlough money into the charity to help for example to feed people who couldn't feed themselves because of covid. I'd have asked for locals to help and used the opportunity to be the hub of the community, which is what I believe a football club should be. I imagine we have a lot of people at the club who are used to both how the retail system works and how to take calls from the public. Now that would be something to do and not some shithouse we'll furlough , we won't furlough because people have got their pitchforks out.  

 

I said at the time, if people want to campaign for us to pay more tax and not use the tax system to the maximum because somehow sport shouldn't be allowed to use the same tax laws as everyone else, fair play. But anyone who thinks exploit the tax system as we do, take money from unethical companies as we do, then thinks we shouldn't take JRS money, I don't think are seeing things straight. 

 

[VladimirIlyich]

59 minutes ago, No2 said:

 

My kids are starting back football, swimming and gymnastics over the next couple of weeks. We had paid in advance for all 3 and didn't get half way through any of them before lock down. Fortunately we can afford to pay again for the next period, there will be discounts and rebates involved in all 3 but that is only possible because everyone worked together. If every parent demanded repayment (which they would be entitled too) we would have no swimming pool to get lessons in, the gymnastics club would fold instantly and the football would be in serious trouble for the next few years.

 

There will be people who were affected badly that did need refunds, those refunds were only available because those that didn't "need" them didn't request them. 

 

Liverpool Football Club have made extraordinary profits over the last 3 years, they didn't need to do it and if they did they wouldn't have backed down so quickly. The very definition of a tory is claiming this when you don't need to. It was disgusting then and it's still disgusting now.

Well said. Do hedge funds promise their investors returns on their investments on regular basis so some of the prfits from the club will paid back to those investors? Or does it work a different way?

[Barrington Womble]

12 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Well said. Do hedge funds promise their investors returns on their investments on regular basis so some of the prfits from the club will paid back to those investors? Or does it work a different way?

hedgefunds pretty much work on a slice of the profits they make for the people who invest in their fund. i think it is known as a performance fee. so they take money, their job is to make it worth more and if they don't or lose money, they get paid nothing. except they don't really lose money as even when the markets go down, they make money on the way.  

[No2]

10 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm not sure I follow any of that to be honest as none of it is relevant to the job retention scheme. And if you say it's Tory behaviour, is every loophole they will exploit not to pay tax just that? We literally do it as a club every single day. For instance we've paid little corporation tax as a club over the last couple of years because of losses in previous years. That's the way the tax system works, you pay what you have to and you don't pay what you don't, otherwise that's called charity. All furlough was/is is an extension of the tax system. If you send people home as a consequence of covid, here's a tax rebate to help continue keeping them employed. As I say, there's people at arsenal out of work now which probably wouldn't have happened or at least happened yet had arsenal taken advantage of furlough. My view here is we use every tax loophole we can already, why should they not use this one, especially if it increases the chances of maintaining job levels further down the line? That's exactly what furlough is there for, to maintain the economy and jobs in a time of decreased cash flow. 

 

Do you take your tax free allowance off the government? I do. I could probably afford to give it up too, but that is literally not how the tax system works. The rules get set and you pay your taxes. If I want to give to charity, I do at my own choice. In this case there was a rebate for anyone who furloughed staff to ensure at least 80% of 2500 per month was paid, LFC could have furloughed and not topped the money up, but they did say they'd top it up because they could afford to do so. Tory behaviour would have been to furlough and to leave staff short of money. The club never intended to do this and taking JRS Money for staff furloughed is what every company did everywhere in that situation and exactly what it was created for. The implications of covid will run beyond this 6 months of government help, so keeping people in jobs now, even if paid for by the government is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. 

 

Personally, I think the club could and should have used it to do a good thing. If I had been in charge of LFC, I'd have helped organise help for those who in need, such as shopping for the vulnerable. Offered all staff the opportunity to come to work to help and where they do, put the equivalent of the furlough money into the charity to help for example to feed people who couldn't feed themselves because of covid. I'd have asked for locals to help and used the opportunity to be the hub of the community, which is what I believe a football club should be. I imagine we have a lot of people at the club who are used to both how the retail system works and how to take calls from the public. Now that would be something to do and not some shithouse we'll furlough , we won't furlough because people have got their pitchforks out.  

 

I said at the time, if people want to campaign for us to pay more tax and not use the tax system to the maximum because somehow sport shouldn't be allowed to use the same tax laws as everyone else, fair play. But anyone who thinks exploit the tax system as we do, take money from unethical companies as we do, then thinks we shouldn't take JRS money, I don't think are seeing things straight. 

 

We're not going to agree here. Clearly the club will use tax loopholes to avoid paying tax like all major corporations do. Just because we don't and won't know the tricks they use, that doesn't make them any less cunty for doing it. It's also done in the background so doesn't really enter our consciousness. I maintain that not paying your pay is the Tory way to do things.

 

The furlough scheme was a very public scheme to help keep staff employed, we could afford to that without using the scheme, as has been proved by the fact we bailed out as soon as it got nasty. 

[Barrington Womble]

16 minutes ago, No2 said:

We're not going to agree here. Clearly the club will use tax loopholes to avoid paying tax like all major corporations do. Just because we don't and won't know the tricks they use, that doesn't make them any less cunty for doing it. It's also done in the background so doesn't really enter our consciousness. I maintain that not paying your pay is the Tory way to do things.

 

The furlough scheme was a very public scheme to help keep staff employed, we could afford to that without using the scheme, as has been proved by the fact we bailed out as soon as it got nasty. 

we've bailed out and made cuts elsewhere in the business and the only reason we did that is because they thought it would cost them more in bad PR! It was still a commercial decision. So OK, you are comfortable with us paying the minimum tax because you don't know about it, but it is happening and you justify it by saying "like all major corporations do". JRS is exactly the same, all businesses too it. It's just tax rebates. 

 

We won't agree because clearly it makes you feel better to complain about JRS and ignore every other thing we take advantage of because we will literally take money off anyone. I don't think taking money off a company that happily uses child labour to produce its products is great. In fact I would say it is 100% worse than JRS. However, I accept it is the way of the world and unless I am about to stop buying everything that has something in the supply chain that doesn't meet what I think is acceptable, it is a bit of a futile argument. JRS to me fits with all of this and I will never understand the hypocrisy of complaining about this while being run by people who've made their money out of hedgefunds, we pay minimal tax every year and we take coin from pretty much any company on the planet providing it is legal to do so. and sometimes even when it is not as we saw with that betting sponsor we had. 

[No2]

12 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

we've bailed out and made cuts elsewhere in the business and the only reason we did that is because they thought it would cost them more in bad PR! It was still a commercial decision. So OK, you are comfortable with us paying the minimum tax because you don't know about it, but it is happening and you justify it by saying "like all major corporations do". JRS is exactly the same, all businesses too it. It's just tax rebates. 

 

We won't agree because clearly it makes you feel better to complain about JRS and ignore every other thing we take advantage of because we will literally take money off anyone. I don't think taking money off a company that happily uses child labour to produce its products is great. In fact I would say it is 100% worse than JRS. However, I accept it is the way of the world and unless I am about to stop buying everything that has something in the supply chain that doesn't meet what I think is acceptable, it is a bit of a futile argument. JRS to me fits with all of this and I will never understand the hypocrisy of complaining about this while being run by people who've made their money out of hedgefunds, we pay minimal tax every year and we take coin from pretty much any company on the planet providing it is legal to do so. and sometimes even when it is not as we saw with that betting sponsor we had. 

I complain about  the use of JRS by the club because it's a grubby public show of greed.

 

Football has become a capitalists wet dream.  As hypocritical as it is I prefer to ignore as much of that as I can and concentrate on the football. I am footballer supporter, I want our players to play for the love of the crest, it's easier to pretend they do when the nasty stuff is kept in the background. 

[RobbieOR]

I don't understand why football clubs were getting shit for using it when other massive companies that are way more profitable (football clubs aren't really set up to be profitable, very few do so even us) were doing it. 

[dockers_strike]

Well, with the latest covid19 restrictions coming into place, it looks doubtful the trumpeted return of fans to stadiums in October might be off the cards. That being the case, a few clubs who have splashed large sums of cash on transfers might be shitting themselves in a few weeks time.

[Barrington Womble]

26 minutes ago, No2 said:

I complain about  the use of JRS by the club because it's a grubby public show of greed.

 

Football has become a capitalists wet dream.  As hypocritical as it is I prefer to ignore as much of that as I can and concentrate on the football. I am footballer supporter, I want our players to play for the love of the crest, it's easier to pretend they do when the nasty stuff is kept in the background. 

so perhaps that is something we can agree on. Football was certainly way more fun when the people in the board rooms were shadowy figures who you knew little about and the players we're international icons before they've played 20 games. actually it is why i am relaxed about JRS, i think it is perfect keeping with everything they do - but it also also why I found JRS a strange hill to die on. I feel we sold our soul some time ago. 

[No2]

7 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

so perhaps that is something we can agree on. Football was certainly way more fun when the people in the board rooms were shadowy figures who you knew little about and the players we're international icons before they've played 20 games. actually it is why i am relaxed about JRS, i think it is perfect keeping with everything they do - but it also also why I found JRS a strange hill to die on. I feel we sold our soul some time ago. 

Who is the reference to the hill about? Fans or FSG?

[lifetime fan]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

we've bailed out and made cuts elsewhere in the business and the only reason we did that is because they thought it would cost them more in bad PR! It was still a commercial decision. So OK, you are comfortable with us paying the minimum tax because you don't know about it, but it is happening and you justify it by saying "like all major corporations do". JRS is exactly the same, all businesses too it. It's just tax rebates. 

 

We won't agree because clearly it makes you feel better to complain about JRS and ignore every other thing we take advantage of because we will literally take money off anyone. I don't think taking money off a company that happily uses child labour to produce its products is great. In fact I would say it is 100% worse than JRS. However, I accept it is the way of the world and unless I am about to stop buying everything that has something in the supply chain that doesn't meet what I think is acceptable, it is a bit of a futile argument. JRS to me fits with all of this and I will never understand the hypocrisy of complaining about this while being run by people who've made their money out of hedgefunds, we pay minimal tax every year and we take coin from pretty much any company on the planet providing it is legal to do so. and sometimes even when it is not as we saw with that betting sponsor we had. 

I think most people (well I certainly did) opposed the club using the JRS as we all know a tory government will fuck over the poorest and most vulnerable in society to recover the money in future budgets. 
 

Knowing that would happen I’m completely against the club taking that money when it was obvious they didn’t need it to protect jobs. 

[Barrington Womble]

8 minutes ago, No2 said:

Who is the reference to the hill about? Fans or FSG?

fans. i thought it strange that JRS was the point where people screamed and shouted, when I believe there are hundreds of things we do in a business sense that are likely to be much worse ethically. fsg, it was completely expected behaviour to me, both the taking of JRS and then backing down when they thought it might cost more money. 

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, lifetime fan said:

I think most people (well I certainly did) opposed the club using the JRS as we all know a tory government will fuck over the poorest and most vulnerable in society to recover the money in future budgets. 
 

Knowing that would happen I’m completely against the club taking that money when it was obvious they didn’t need it to protect jobs. 

That is every single tax contribution though. Every time we find a way of not paying tax in a completely legal sense, that is what you are doing. Perhaps it is the way I look at the tax system, but the JRS was just a part of the tax system - and it wasn't there to be used "if you needed it", it was to be used to maintain jobs at a time of decreased cashflow. 

 

I will put it another way. If the government offered us a £10m grant to build the road end because it would create jobs and increase investment, do you think we should take it? Because that still has to be paid and the exact same people will pay for it. 

[Harry Squatter]

The club prides itself on being socialist after Shankly, it portrays itself as a club where everyone pulls together. A lot of our fans hate the Tory government and say they are scouse not English. 

 

Then the club fucks over a load of lowly paid employees by making them apply for the furlough scheme but lets the players keep all their money. The wealthy owners expect the lowest paid to foot the bill for their losses. Basically what a Tory government does to public servants or benefit claimants.

 

Then the fans who hate the government and don't like being part of the establishment support a wealthy football club bumming money off a government they despise or don't want to recognise because they say they live in a scouse republic.

[lifetime fan]

2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

That is every single tax contribution though. Every time we find a way of not paying tax in a completely legal sense, that is what you are doing. Perhaps it is the way I look at the tax system, but the JRS was just a part of the tax system - and it wasn't there to be used "if you needed it", it was to be used to maintain jobs at a time of decreased cashflow. 

 

I will put it another way. If the government offered us a £10m grant to build the road end because it would create jobs and increase investment, do you think we should take it? Because that still has to be paid and the exact same people will pay for it. 

We didn’t need it to protect jobs though did we. 

[No2]

20 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

fans. i thought it strange that JRS was the point where people screamed and shouted, when I believe there are hundreds of things we do in a business sense that are likely to be much worse ethically. fsg, it was completely expected behaviour to me, both the taking of JRS and then backing down when they thought it might cost more money. 

Well if you can't understand supporters choosing this subject to take up arms then you don't get the club. 

[Barrington Womble]

24 minutes ago, Doctor Troy said:

The club prides itself on being socialist after Shankly, it portrays itself as a club where everyone pulls together. A lot of our fans hate the Tory government and say they are scouse not English. 

 

Then the club fucks over a load of lowly paid employees by making them apply for the furlough scheme but lets the players keep all their money. The wealthy owners expect the lowest paid to foot the bill for their losses. Basically what a Tory government does to public servants or benefit claimants.

 

Then the fans who hate the government and don't like being part of the establishment support a wealthy football club bumming money off a government they despise or don't want to recognise because they say they live in a scouse republic.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you think it is fucking over employees? They apply for nothing. It should be done seamlessly by the club and salaries paid exactly how they were before in full, the club confirmed everybody would be paid in full. All it meant was people would now sit at home with a zero requirement to do any work on full pay and the source of the salary was 80% from HMRC with the rest being made up by the football club. 

[Barrington Womble]

22 minutes ago, lifetime fan said:

We didn’t need it to protect jobs though did we. 

how do you know? 

[Barrington Womble]

8 minutes ago, No2 said:

Well if you can't understand supporters choosing this subject to take up arms then you don't get the club. 

ok. fuck off you condescending cunt. 

[Harry Squatter]

1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you think it is fucking over employees? They apply for nothing. It should be done seamlessly by the club and salaries paid exactly how they were before in full, the club confirmed everybody would be paid in full. All it meant was people would now sit at home with a zero requirement to do any work on full pay and the source of the salary was 80% from HMRC with the rest being made up by the football club. 

More to do with putting them through the needless stress of it as well as the worry of not knowing whether the club would still keep them on at the end of it.

 

Also, the overall PR failure of the club targeting the lowest paid in the club to recover their losses. 

[lifetime fan]

8 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

how do you know? 

Because we paid everyone 100% of their salaries and no one lost their job. 

[Tony Moanero]

20 minutes ago, No2 said:

Well if you can't understand supporters choosing this subject to take up arms then you don't get the club. 

Your clothes smell of Fray Bentos pies.

[No2]

8 minutes ago, Tony Moanero said:

Your clothes smell of Fray Bentos pies.

Below the belt that.

[Barrington Womble]

17 minutes ago, Doctor Troy said:

More to do with putting them through the needless stress of it as well as the worry of not knowing whether the club would still keep them on at the end of it.

 

Also, the overall PR failure of the club targeting the lowest paid in the club to recover their losses. 

I don't understand how it is needless stress. And as for if the club keep them on at the end of it, if that was the reality, they would have been made redundant at the start. Arsenal furloughed, they didn't take the JRS money as that became toxic in football (by the way, can I say because Matt Hancock made it so!) and at the end of it 50 staff got laid off.