On a Positive note

[RedKnight]

I just want next season to start now, fuck the summer.

[Little Sammy]

I don't care whether this was Rafa's best season or not. I admire the man that said "first is first, second is nothing" and I used to believe that this was the Liverpool way, but sadly I can't reccognise this club from the one I used to support as a kid anymore.

 

Can't believe so many people are actually happy we came second. We're Liverpool for fucks' sake and should be winning trophies every year. Good effort, yes. Good enough? FUCK NO.

[Little Sammy]

Although we have obviously improved' date=' I think we more than played our part in letting UTD back into the title chase. Even if we end the season in second place its a massive disappointment for me.[/quote']

 

 

Totally agree with this point of view.

[hamstrung]

I don't care whether this was Rafa's best season or not. I admire the man that said "first is first, second is nothing" and I used to believe that this was the Liverpool way, but sadly I can't reccognise this club from the one I used to support as a kid anymore.

 

Can't believe so many people are actually happy we came second. We're Liverpool for fucks' sake and should be winning trophies every year. Good effort, yes. Good enough? FUCK NO.

 

Aren't you in your early 20's?

[Little Sammy]

Aren't you in your early 20's?

 

Wish I were mate. 26 and counting :(

[hamstrung]

Even at 26 (depending on your definition of "kid") the club you supported "as a kid" wasn't much to write home about.

 

Seems a bizarre post for anyone under the age of about 35 to make.

[Redshadow]

I agree with some but not all of the above - I think we DID have a problem scoring goals in that ridiculous run of home draws and I think that Spurs game DID cost us as has anyone noticed that A:) it came immediately before said draws (all through November and start of December) and B:) because of it we sat back a lot in a number of following games (West Ham, Fulham, Hull, even West Brom' which we won due to their errors)?

 

However that wasn't our only problem - we didn't kill off games enough when we had the chance - when we were leading 1 - 0 or 0 -1 away from AND at home. We didn't close games out and/or kill off the oppo'. Contrary to what was said above - we had no need to score 2nd goals v Everton and Wigan IF we had defended the 1 - 0 lead like WE did in 2005/2006 regularly and like United did this year. We didn't, conceded and paid for it in the final points tally. There was also numerous games like THAT bloody Spurs game, the absymal capitulation at Boro' and the ridiculous home draws with Stoke and Hull where we could and should have absolutely pulverised/buried said opposition but missed shedloads of chances and didn't. Resulting in the inevitable result of draws and/or defeats. Had we played ANY of the sides to take points off us now then we'd have beaten or battered them at Home, I'm sure of it and in fact we HAVE proved that by defeating Hull, Everton, West Ham AND Fulham all away from home this season - What we did NOT do at Home however was attack them as viciously as we did on their grounds and that's maybe where we fell down a bit. I don't think it's so much a problem of personell as one of attitude.

 

The fact that we're the highest scorers in the league this year and scored the most goals in ALL competitions last season, shows that we have enough goals in us to win prizes - what we do NOT yet have although we may now be (re)acquiring it is the 'professional'/'clinical'/'ruthless' streak that ALL champions and/or Champions in waiting have in their makeup - a streak I call 'the knowhow' that says sod having players missing, sod being home or away, sod who we're playing, we WILL beat them and we WILL score anyway and inevitably, such teams do score AND win. Such teams keep a clean sheet when leading 0 - 2 away from home in the CL, they win 1 - 0 at home against their local rivals or 0 -1 away to a difficult, annoying local side (ala Wigan), they win 3 - 2 at home after trailing 0 -2 to a new PL side rather than drawing 2 - 2 and they FIND a way through a wall of defianct defence put up by West Ham, Fulham et al at Anfield - they do NOT concede 4 goals in said CL game, late equalisers in league games or not then find a winner when they need it in above home PL games and THAT, ladies and gents is why we're not winning the league this year.

 

We weren't ruthless enough - never mind wingers, strikers, midfielders in the transfer market or backup from the bench (all of which would be good and would improve our chances of the PL next year - but none of which is ABSOLUTELY essential) - what we need most is a 'fight for every point, ALWAYS try and win and do NOT sit back in games' mentality for ALL our games as earlier in the season we didn't care enough I think - we went into games v Stoke, Hull, West Ham etc TRYING to win but Rafa' clearly thought "oh well, if we don't win, we can make up the points later and besides the others will make mistakes - I don't mind a draw". He even said it I think on one occasion.

 

Well the others (Man U) DIDN'T make enough mistakes and those dropped points DID matter didn't they? I think we'll know this next season and we'll put a LOT more pressure on teams and probably win most if not ALL our Anfield games - I also think that given the way we've ruthlessly started gunning down teams since March AND arguing for/getting a lot more from refs that we'll be A:) the recipients of a few 'generous' decisions next season when we need them ala the Mancs after 1991/1992 (when THEY came second after far to many draws and basically 'learnt' how to win the league - THIS is our version of that season for them and B:) because of teams fearing us now - we'll get a LOT more 'park the bus' teams at Anfield and as such will NEED to play as we have since March in EVERY game from August onwards.

 

Still, I'm happy enough and not only because the Mancs are getting older and cant' KEEP at their current levels forever without being overtaken but also because if they lose Ronaldo - I can see them struggling - look how ordinary they were v us WITH him and importantly WITHOUT a biased refereee - if that happens more often, they'll drop a LOT more points since they're nothing like invincible but that doesn't matter when refs help you as they've been assisted does it? Anyway as I said, we just have to KEEP starting every game from now on as if our lives depend on it like we have since March 2nd v Sunderland and things will change in the PL soon enough since if we do that, I KNOW we'll show that we're the best team in the country. We are now I think but we just don't have enough games to prove it. Next year we'll put that right....................................

 

 

NB: Just so people know HERE is the games we've dropped points in thus far in full along with results;

 

Aston Villa (A) 0 - 0

Stoke City (H) 0 - 0

Tottenham Hotspur (A) 1 - 2

Fulham (H) 0 - 0

West Ham (H) 0 - 0

Hull City (H) 2 - 2

Arsenal (A) 1 - 1

Stoke City (A) 0 - 0

Everton (H) 1 - 1

Wigan (A) 1 - 1

Manchester City (H) 1 - 1

Middlesbrough (A) 0 - 2

Arsenal (H) 4 - 4

 

That's 28 points dropped over the season with in particular 6 games where if we'd kept a clean sheet (yes this means you Woo!!) then we'd have earned an extra 14 points (against Hull, City Wigan, Everton, Arsenal twice since you ask). Win those 6 games and the 0 - 0's wouldn't have mattered NOR would United's efforts since January - We'd have rendered this very page arguing about WHY we missed the title academic as we'd ALREADY be on 94 points. And you know what? We scored in EVERY one of those games mentioned - we just conceded as well and THAT was the problem. The problem in the 0-0's had less to do with our players quality than the fact that we sat back in ALL those games (particularly against Villa away and Fulham at home). We've since shown that WHEN we attack those teams enough we WILL beat them as we've beaten ALL of the teams we drew with at home bar Stoke away from home since playing them at Anfield;

 

I honestly don't believe we'll make the same mistake next year at home against them and we'll absolutely murder all of them at home whoever we play in the side but as I've alluded to above. It's our DEFENCE that has failed a little this year - the things we've done in the 6 draws we've scored in - the goals conceded, the late slippage of vital leads, the concession of shocking first half goals and own goals - just aren't mishaps that Champions allow to happen to them and THAT is what cost us the title. Still, if there's one thing we can be sure of it is that Rafa' WILL learn from this season and what could that mean for next season? Well who knows, but we're good enough to win it - we know that now - More importantly I think we've convinced ourselves of it OVER A SEASON and that will prove essential come next May..........................

[Little Sammy]

Even at 26 (depending on your definition of "kid") the club you supported "as a kid" wasn't much to write home about.

 

Seems a bizarre post for anyone under the age of about 35 to make.

 

Well if you're going to get all pedantic on me, my definition of a kid is basically a kid... Around 8-10 years... Dad telling you stories about the Kop, Shankly, First being first and second being nothing... That sort of thing mate... I think just about everyone old enough to remember misses those days.

[hamstrung]

Well if you're going to get all pedantic on me, my definition of a kid is basically a kid... Around 8-10 years... Dad telling you stories about the Kop, Shankly, First being first and second being nothing... That sort of thing mate... I think just about everyone old enough to remember misses those days.

 

I wasn't being pedantic. I just thought the bit about the club today "not being the same one you supported as a kid" was an odd thing to say given the rot began then. When you were 8-10 Souness had just taken over as manager.

 

The club is much better placed to win trophies than it was "when you were a kid", is the point I am making.

[Scott_M]

How we've finished the season is the way we need to continue.

 

If we carry this into next season, I'm sure we'll do it.

 

Plus, it's destiny for it to get to 18 all & then we'll pull one ahead again just to piss them off.

[Redshadow]

Incidentally - Welsh Kopite. I disagree a little with you. I think it's as much about mentality as it is the players we buy. Remember when we had Luis Garcia in the team and won a lot of home games up until 2007 every season under Rafa'? We still didn't do better though did we because of our lack of ruthlessness in some games and in my view we're STILL not as ruthless as we should be.

 

You say we need more creative threats to score goals but since we've started attacking teams all-out at the beginning of March, Agger, Ngog, Benayoun, Kuyt (in particular these two), Alonso, Aurelio and Dossena have ALL scored goals and Kuyt has scored quite regularly thorughout the season so no I don't agree that Gerrard and Torres are our only threats in those annoying home games v parked buses. But what DID cost us in those games was not doing what we did at Fulham, Hull and now West Ham yesterday from the off which was going STRAIGHT For the throat.

 

In the home games v West Ham, Fulham and Hull AND in both games v Stoke. We meandered around for half an hour or so, settled in a bit, had the odd counter-attack scare (at least 2 of those sides hit bar and/or post v us I think) and then decided 'oh, we'd better attack if we're to score or we won't win/draw'). After that, we upped the ante a little, set up a regular barrage of their goal but didn't bust a gut until the last 10 minutes when we realised that points were going to be lost if we didn't pull our fingers out and only THEN did we go hell for leather for 10/20/25 mins or so and caused enough havoc to threaten goals.

 

In the Hull game after equalising, we followed this EXACT pattern and in the rest, we did it from the first whistle. Contrast with our games since March, when we've been after EVERYONE, including Man U, Real, Villa etc and gone for the throat from the off. We're like a different side with goals from all over the park and what's annoying is we COULD have had this attitude and these results in those Home Draws/matches with Stoke.

 

However Rafa' didn't want to do this until it was his last resort. THAT is what has cost us not missed signings/extra creativity - It's the determination to break teams no matter what - the constant relentless barrage that doesn't let up until something in the defensive wall collapses (ala our performance at Fulham last month). Doing THAT all the time to smaller sides is how the Mancs became so good at breaking through the parked buses and Rafa' missed a trick in not allowing us off the leash MUCH earlier this season but I don't think he'll make the same mistake again.................

[Little Sammy]

When you were 8-10 Souness had just taken over as manager.

 

Not pedantic huh? ;)

 

Fair enough then. I just miss the good old days, when Man Utd were just an over-rated, under-achieving team.

[Redshadow]

Also I think one of our problems in those draws was the changes of formation forced on Rafa' by the purchase of Robbie Keane - Lest we forget. We'd perfected the 4-2-3-1 'Gerrard and Torres' Formation we're now back to by May 2008 and were scoring goals with it. Then? Robbie comes in and we try to switch to 4-4-2 with him. The switch doesn't work and we change formations regularly but the goals don't come back until we've sold Robbie back to Spurs showing just how ridiculous his capture was in the first place. With the players unsure what formation we were using and WHO was going to be upfront etc in the first part of the season as well as unsure in our formation (4-4-2, 4-2-3-1? A-Z? LOL only joking with the last one) Is our slump in scoring during those draws any real surprise? Not to me it isn't.

[Little Sammy]

Also I think one of our problems in those draws was the changes of formation forced on Rafa' by the purchase of Robbie Keane - Lest we forget. We'd perfected the 4-2-3-1 'Gerrard and Torres' Formation we're now back to by May 2008 and were scoring goals with it. Then? Robbie comes in and we try to switch to 4-4-2 with him. The switch doesn't work and we change formations regularly but the goals don't come back until we've sold Robbie back to Spurs showing just how ridiculous his capture was in the first place. With the players unsure what formation we were using and WHO was going to be upfront etc in the first part of the season as well as unsure in our formation (4-4-2, 4-2-3-1? A-Z? LOL only joking with the last one) Is our slump in scoring during those draws any real surprise? Not to me it isn't.

 

When Keane was not playing at all and was about to leave we went through the darkest spell of our season, not winning a single game in January mate.

[Redshadow]

Yes we did - but we also were STILL trying to play 4-4-2 formation at that time and switiching our strikers CONSTANTLY before we sold Keane and THAT is what I think undermined our Home form as we were doing that constantly up until February when -just like last season - We suddenly clicked into some sort of gear and began a fantastic run that's seen us have only one draw and one defeat in the 3 and a bit months since.

[meijer 09]

:(

Well, in my opinion we lost the title to them through our poor results at home in the middle of the season. And that fucking game at White Hart Lane where we had the three points in our pocket and should have killed the game several times.

 

A great season by all means, but unfortunately we don't have anyone else than ourselves to blame for not winning the title.

 

exactly

[G Richards]

The season is not over yet. There is still a bit of hope. Wigan might get something from the midweek game and Arsenal might be up for it in revenge for going out in the CL semi. If it somehow goes to the last game then pressure might tell.

 

Obviously all that is unlikely, but we can't do a post mortem on the season while it is still alive (just).

 

When we dissect things then you could easily make a case for a stronger defence (we have let in more soft goals than usual this season); but then, you could also make a case for going all out in attack, taking off the shackles and simply hammering teams, as of late. There will be many who will talk about the run of draws at home too.

 

All those things are easy to say now, but in the meantime the season is still alive.

[Trucker Paddy]

Alot of draws at home to shit teams cost us, but the 1-1 Arsenal away was pathetic, Fabregas goes off injured Adaboyer gets sent off, so we decide to take off our only striker Keane and replace him with el zhar a pretty shit winger, Keane did'nt work out fine but that day he'd scored a screamer was really up for it, and Rafa who was still trying to get 1 up on somebody at the club over Keanes signing decided against what was best for the team and took him off when Arsenal was on the rack, that day was a clear example of why we're potless this season.

[kop]

I just farted. Seriously. I need to open a window.

 

Edit: I'm not mocking the thread in any way, I just happened to be in here when I slipped it.

[Kevin D]

Thought Lucas had been sold.

[Red Nick]

We lost it. We were seven points clear at one point.

 

I agree with that but the point I was trying to make is towards the end at least we won our games and put pressure on utd to win the title rather than drawing against Fulham and West Ham

[Red Nick]

For all those who think we have plenty in our locker to win games because we are the highest scorers in the league miss the point entirely. Once the game is won 2-0 or 4.0 its 3 points. This season we've struggled to beat a lot of teams through not having that extra quality up front to break teams down a Dalglish or Ronaldo type of player and if we dont get that type of player in the summer the same problems will be here next season

 

Lets look at the positives and hope things gets fixed for the start of next season

[zigackly]

I'm not sure I fully agree with that Nick, we're not struggling to break anyone down now. It's the change in mentality we needed and hopefully now it's obvious to everyone what that brings we will start next season the way we've finished this one. We do need another matchwinning player to give us more guarantees if Torres or Gerrard are injured or having an off day, but I honestly think this team we have now could win the title if the season started tomorrow, with what we've learned this season.

[SpeedyG]

Villa (A) - 0-0

Stoke (H) - 0-0

Fulham (H) - 0-0

West Ham (H) - 0-0

Hull (H) - 2-2

Stoke (A) - 0-0

Wigan (A) - 1-1

Everton (H) - 1-1

Boro (A) - 2-0

 

All games we should have won, that we didn't, mainly due to the fact that we didn't create enough clear chances.

 

In 6 of those, your precious clean sheets were still kept.

 

That is what has cost us the league this season. Not the fact that we have conceded 26 goals in the league this season. We have kept clean sheets in over half our league games I believe.

 

Failure to score in games, correlates more with no success, than conceding less than a goal a game.

 

You can try and pretend that all those results were down to one reason but they weren't. Take the Stoke game (H) I remember it well. We created 30 chances. We didn't win that one because Xabi and Stevie couldn't hit the target pure and simple. 7 each and 1 or 2 on target they were rancid.

 

Take the west ham game. 25 chances, 9 to SG and 0 on target.

[welsh_kopite]

Redshadow, I agree with what you are saying and touched on it in my post. I do believe it has a lot to do with our mentality and being ruthless and 'going for the throat.' However, throwing men forward and attacking more does not necessarily guarantee you a goal.

 

I just think that you need that added quality, somebody other than Gerrard or Torres to create a little bit of magic when we aren't playing too well. I do agree that in games where it is 0-0 against lesser teams or even 1-0 we should be attacking and looking to score more goals. My point is that with another quality attacking option in key areas, we can create more. Surely this is the problem? We seem to take our chances well and generally when our players get in the right position they find the net. However, in certain games we push forward, keep the ball and dominate but can't find that final ball or bit of quality we need to get us a goal.

 

This is where a quality creative player will help and you also have Yossi, Kuyt, Alonso, Riera to chip in aswell. Interestingly, between the four of them they have scored 25 goals this season. Our problem isn't scoring goals as a whole, it is scoring goals when we aren't playing well or when we face stubborn teams who set out to stop us attacking. A quality creative player will give us that edge we need and with a little more ruthlessness we can really rip teams to shreds as we have been recently. Admitedly this has been due to us being more ruthless but to sustain it all season we need an added attacking option.